M3 Prototype Build

[Chris Hall]

Pete -

I'm not sure when the Westinghouse STAB system was fitted, but it wasn't always used as it didn't really work. But all the pictures I've seen of later M3's with the M2 gun have the counterweight. So, as always, it depends on the depth of your research and which vehicle you're building.

The counterweight is already available in resin from East Coast Armory in the US. If Armorpax don't do one we may have to place a block order .

No AA fire required - all debate is good !

All the best,

Chris

[Armortek]

As promised - some video of the prototype M3 Grant getting its first test run - and it ran perfectly.
Photographs to follow.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Armortek]

[Brian Ostlind]

Wow, what a beautiful model. It really jumps off the screen. I especially like the video with the damp concrete. It looks like a Hollywood movie!

Brian

[Christoffer Ahlfors]

Very interesting model with lots of detail and plenty of opportunity for animation. I didn't know I like these!

[Pete Nash]

My 'source' is Terry Ganders 'Medium Tank M3 to M3A5' in the Tanks in Detail published in 2003 by Ian Allen.

In that he says that the original equipment was the M3 gun, basically a tank mounted 75mm M1918 Field Gun. The tooling was available at the Watervliet Arsenal so could be quickly bought into production in 1941
However the the US Armored Forces Board objected to the barrel length as it protruded past the tracks and could be snagged on obstacles so it was reduced in length by 16 inches and adopted as the 'M2' Gun.

The British received their first tanks (Grants) with the M3 gun and objected when they received Lees with the M2 gun as the reduction in length reduced muzzle velocity by 200 ft/sec. It was requested that all British tanks , Lee and Grant, be fitted with the M3 gun but as they were in short supply M2 guns continued to be fitted as an Interim Measure.

The Gyro Stabilisation system was designed to be used on the longer barrelled M3 gun but the reduction in weight of the M2 gun upset the balance (causing the stabilisation system to fail?) necessitating the fitting of the counterweight collar.

I'm hoping Kian will give us a M2 barrel plus a 2.6 inch extension so we can have both barrel lengths to suit whichever type we are going for.
HINT HINT Kian

Regards to everyone

Pete

[Armortek]

And last but not least we have some pictures of the Lee.
We will get to all the questions that have been asked on this thread in the next day or two .. in the meantime .....

[Chris Hall]

That's my baby ..... but without the silly little m/g turret on top. I'll be hoping that the top hatch from the Grant turret just drops in (that's what the Tank Workshops did).

Pete - there's no question that the M2 gun wasn't as good as the M3 in terms of muzzle velocity. That said, the Lee / Grant was never going to do well in a stand-up anti-tank fight with a Pz III or IV (Kasserine Pass proved that). Given the hull down problem, either gun was much better at firing HE. And both guns survived all the way through WW2. So it just depends on what tank you want to recreate - that's the joy of this build !

I can't see Kian springing for two barrels . It might be possible to release the longer barrel, which could be cut down. Better than screwing on an extra piece . But that's an engineering, and costing, question which is not for me to work out !

All the best,

Chris

[Robert E Morey]

That is really something! I never dreamed I'd look on a Lee as a thing of beauty - but it is an amazing model. Well done Armortek. I like the silly little MG turret! As a combat tank the Lee was severely lacking - so the little turret adds to its "Uniqueness". One hardly ever saw even a 1/35 scale model of a Lee, until Takom released one this year. That is what makes this one so special - very unique!

Time for a 1/6 scale "Sahara" Redux!
B

[Adrian Harris]

It seems to me that the Lee Commander's cupola is too low profile

The ventilator appears to be a later addition, and I can't believe they would have a close support MG which couldn't sweep past the ventilator

Adrian.

[Armortek]

In response to some of the questions that have been posed on this thread (and a couple of other bits of info):

Return Rollers - They will be made of steel on the production version
Axe, towing wire and track spanner will be included in the production version
Final drive case will have rounded inside corners
Rivets - the rivets shown will be the ones supplied. You may have noticed some empty fastener holes, these are for some dome slot head bolts that are being made at the moment - as per the original.
75mm gun - Our plan was to only supply the shorter M2 version, however, for Pete we can look into whether we can supply an extension !
On a side note - the 75mm and 37mm barrels are not fixed in place on the prototype, so you may see them at different lengths depending on the photograph.
2x 30mm m/g on the hull will be more recessed then they are on the prototype
Lee Cupola - The early blueprints that we were working off showed a lower m/g cupola and ventilator as well as a couple of other features. We have already updated the design to change both of these but this is not reflected in the prototype as the metal had already been cut.

[Armortek]

On the topic of RC controls the M3 Lee & Grant have A LOT that could be controlled - but this needs to be balanced with what is practical to use/ for us to provide and with what people would want.

We have not finalised the RC design yet - so reasonable suggestions are welcome, but ideally I would like to stick to 6 channels so as not to complicate things.

Possible plan for the LEE is:
2 Channels for drive - left and right track
1 channel to select sounds and for recoil of the 75mm gun
1 channel for turret turn
1 channel for 35mm gun elevation

That would leave 1 rc switched channel - could be used to randomly move the 75mm gun and/ or the commanders cupola.

Grant would be the same - with the exception of not having the commanders cupola to worry about.

Comments welcome.
Kian

[Chris Hall]

The RC side of it is still a mystery to me - I rely on the 'clever people' to write the instruction book, which I slavishly follow ! But I would see both versions working as follows:

• 2 channels for drive - left and right track. This is surely a given.

• 1 channel for the sound card. I'm assuming the following sound files -

Engine start / run
37mm gun fire (with flashing LED)
Co-axial m/g fire (with flashing LED)
Fixed hull m/g fire (with flashing LED's)

• 1 channel for Turret rotation / 37mm gun elevation

• (Possibly) 1 channel for lights

Can the main 75mm gun be 'randomly' operated from a control box like the Mark IV tank ? That would be the 6th channel. It would mean that the 'driver' would concentrate on driving and the turret, much like a 'normal' tank. I'm also assuming single-stick driving, leaving the other joystick for turret rotation / 37mm gun elevation.

Does that make sense ?

The one I can't solve is the Lee m/g turret. If it's to move it'll need an additional turret motor. It might be best to leave it unpowered (apart from possibly a sound file for the m/g) and let people come up with their own solution. It is, of course, not an issue for Grant owners, or people like me who are going to take off the m/g turret altogether (as the British often did, as well as plating over the front m/g's).

Hope this helps. I'm venturing into unknown territory, but this is the first time I've been in on the 'ground floor' of an Armortek model, so I'm sticking my neck out !

All the best,

Chris

[Adrian Harris]

Thanks for the update Kian.

Chris, that's all perfectly feasible. I would have thought the Lee MG turret would be easiest with a servo.

One thing I'm wondering is whether the dual MG in the hull were synchronised, or separate, which would affect how the LEDs are need to be wired.

I need to get back to looking at my MG splitter, and adding extra LEDs

Adrian.

[Adrian Harris]

Having seen the prototype in the flesh yesterday, wearing its T41 tracks, I though I'd have a go at drafting and 3D printing a link of the British "Rubber Standard" pattern, usually known as WE210.

I think it looks OK, although my 3D printer doesn't seem to be printing solid layers at the top for some reason

Adrian.