Steel tracks on Armortek models?

[Gerhard Michel]

Hello guys,

I have quite good experiences over some years in using steel tracks made by Olaf with my 3 tigers (King Tiger production turret, King Tiger Porsche turret, Jagdtiger). None of these models is manufactured by Armortek, but the conversion to Olafs steel tracks was not too difficult. The necessary individual designed sprockets were made by myself, except my Porsche KT, which uses adapted sprockets from its manufacturer and the original gear rings from Olaf.

All my models are tested and used in heavy terrain on "Eckersmühlen proving ground", a large sand pit with very challenging driving conditions, where models are used up to distances of 80 metres away from the steersman:





The steel tracks with aluminium gear rings worked very well and with only a few wearout of the gear rings, while aluminium tracks couldn't withstand in some driving situation. Also the original AT Jagdpanther and Tiger I tracks were / are sometimes cracking under these unusual conditions. Please see a sharp turn in wet sand, with up to 4 cm of sand between track and road wheels! That's a severe stress to the whole device.




Now I also own an AT Jagdpanther, and I'm glad to hear that Vincent is offering steel tracks for the Panther / Jagdpanther.

Can anyone tell me his experiences in using steel tracks on Armortek models, e.g. the King Tiger? As far as I know Olaf sold 2 offers of 10 track sets each; therefore I hope that some King Tigers are equipped with steel tracks and are in action till now.

[Gerhard Michel]

Hello all,

really no one here who wants to share his personal experiences in using steel track links for driving tank models? Now all Vincent's Panther steel track links are sold too, and I hope that one or another owner will use it for driving in rough terrain like me. In my neighbourhood only one guy uses Olafs track links (on an non-Armortek King Tiger), which has perhaps 50 driving hours till now without trouble or remarkable wear.

Here one of my very slightly worn sprockets after about 20 hours of use (on the left side). On the right side a new sprocket (under construction) with another form of teeths for testing purposes. You will find that all my teeth are longer than native ones to prevent some spinning of the sprockets, when much dirt is collected.



At last I used Olafs shape of teeths which fits best to his steel track links, also on my models. This pointed tooth shape is also to be seen on rare fotos of native King Tigers, though this appearance may be a little exotic. But please remember the single piece Kgs 73/800/152 was not the mainstream too:



This construction has proved to be successful even at higher speeds in rough terrain:

[Tom OBrien]

Gerhard,

I came across this old post regarding the use of steel tracks on the heavier tank models.

Is there someone who still offers to sell steel tracks that would fit an Armortek Tiger 1?

The tracks on my Tiger are slipping and I've tried every conceivable solution, i.e., tightening the tracks, checking for good alignment, etc.

I noticed that there is wear on the inside part of the tracks (where the road wheels travel) after driving it through hard gravel. I'm wondering if I should replace the tracks but with steel rather than aluminum, if possible.

Thanks,

Tom

[Adrian Harris]

Check out Phil Woollards current Tiger build thread - he is using steel tracks on that one from Liam Mahoney in Australia.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7873&p=79168

Adrian.

[Gerhard Michel]

Hi Tom,

I don't know anybody offering steel track links for the Armortek Tiger I today. Maybe that Vincent also received the drawings for the Tiger I tracks like those for the Panther and Pz IV from Olaf. If that is true then there is the theoretical possibility to make these tracks if there are enough potential buyers.

Also steel tracks links for the Tiger II are wanted but no more available today. I myself am very pleased of these tank treads and use them on 3 of my models after adapting the sprockets.

Steel track links wear the driving gear a little more, also when fitting exactly, but this is no real trouble. Only Vincent's Panther track links caused more attrition due to misfitting the driving gear and the sprockets, see the thread about my Jagdpanther.

[Tom OBrien]

Thank you Herr Michel, I saw your excellent posts on steel tracks and sprockets. Mr. Harris also posted a link to someone from Australia who is using steel tracks, so I'll check that out.

Indeed, steel would be a more expensive route and my only suggestion to Armortek would be to explore the possibility of increasing the strength of their current cast aluminium tracks and sprocket sets. This might reduce the chance of damaging the tracks if a hard object like granite stone or gravel gets caught up in the road wheels, idler, and drive sprockets.

For now, I will chamfer a bit more of the inside sprockets where the excessive wear appears on the tracks and see if that helps. I suppose ordering a new set of tracks is an option, with the understanding that I won't be able to take it "off road" in the future.

On the other hand, the StuG I just finished runs great, as it is lighter in weight and its tracks are set up differently. However, learning my lesson from the Tiger 1, I will be extra careful not to run it in gravel.

Thanks again,

Tom

[Gerhard Michel]

Well, a tank is a tank and has to be treated as a tank, I mean. So it basically must conquer every kind of grounds, but gravel and wet sand are some challenge. One must be aware that some components of the drive train may be damaged under these conditions. Usually this are track links that break. Using steel track links avoid this damage, but then other parts suffer when the workload is too high. In such a situation (wet sand with stones between) my Porsche Kingtiger lost two suspension arms by breaking.

Steel track links are very useful and durable when driving on asphalt roads or similar grounds. A comrade drives his King Tiger downtown in Munich over stone stairs and so on. Its original track links were worn out in a short time, the steel track links are nearly new after 100 hours.

[Brian Ostlind]

I’ve driven in enough gravel to cause a lot of problems. Steel tracks would just tear up the drive gears over time instead of tracks which would be harder to fix.

[Tom OBrien]

Both Gerhard and Brian present excellent points.

Long ago as a member of a "systems engineering" team on the US Army's M1E1 Abrams Main Battle Tank program, we were constantly testing components and their impact on other components and subsystems in the tank. Lots of interesting stories from those days but I won't bore you with them here, and because it's Gerhard's thread.

Suffice it to offer my suggestion to Armortek to strengthen the aluminum in their cast tracks (perhaps by adding nickel and tin to the alloy), and also, to increase the height of the drive sprocket teeth by 2mm, and hopefully they'll consider that in future builds.

BTW, I've broken four tracks (where the pins attach) in the manner described by Gerhard. Brian has the right idea of driving over wood pulp instead of gravel.

Cheers... Tom

[Gerhard Michel]

In Hausen no year passed till now without breaking at least one AT track link, and there was no gravel but only grass and earth and some steep hills. I didn't see the tracks breaking, I only saw the result. In most situations the model either climbed a hill or moved sideways on a ramp. Therefore I suppose that the tracks moved out of the sprocket teeth or even the idler wheel and were excessively stretched. Prone to those events were mainly Panthers / Jagdpanthers, Tigers and King Tigers.




Of course not only AT models failed. The pic shows a Bigtanks Leopard II A6 at such a hill loosing its track at the idler wheel (without breaking). The AT Jagdpanther had no trouble in this moment......

.. but failed in another occasion and was saved in proper style by a Bergepanther:

[Mark Heaps]

At the last Hausen am Bach meeting, I broke a track link on a Armortek SdKfz 7 but I had spare links & pins with me. Just took me a bit of time to catch up with the rest of the convoy around the village.

Servo for the steering wheels had worked perfectly the day before when loading the model in the car but had then failed so the tracks were doing all the turning.
Replacing the 1 track link alerted me to the real problem. With a steel track that did not break, my total repair cost could have been a lot more.
Mark

[Christoffer Ahlfors]

I have been thinking a lot of this. You want the weakest spot to be something cheap and easy to replace. A track set is not. An idler arm is not. The screws to the final gear housing are cheap, but removing them if broken could be extremely difficult, if at all possible. I have seen a design with a spring on the idler, to give way under overload. It tends to spring when it shouldn't.

Marine outboard motors have a pin in the propeller that breaks if the prop hits an underwater rock. The propeller will be busted, but the transmission saved. Maybe something like that?

[Adrian Harris]

> You want the weakest spot to be something cheap and easy to replace.

I can't think of anything cheaper or easier to replace than a broken track link.

Adrian.

[Gerhard Michel]

IMHO the real trouble is not the replacing of a track link itself, but the necessity to do that lying on your pounch, in worst case about 200 meters away from the car and the necessary tools. There is also no automobile association which may help

Until now I had at least 3 events which could have caused a broken track link:

1. wet sand that nearly blocked the drive train (see picture above in this thread). The steel tracks and the drive train endured the overload without damage.

2. sideways driving at a steep hill caused the track going out of the idler groove with extreme stretching. Also no trouble occurred besides the necessity to bring it back.

3. a larger stone found its way into the drive train of my Porsche turret King Tiger when cornering in rough grounds about 50 meters away from me and my car. This mighty overload caused 2 suspension arms to break. Okay, this was an event where I might have been happier to replace only a broken track link. Nevertheless: after removing the roadwheels with the broken suspension arms the tank could be driven to the car and reached its maintenance department by its own efforts, just like the Jagdtiger of Bovington in its former home in Haustenbeck . After some hours of work I had 2 new suspension arms, made from steel and absolutely undestroyable.

[Tom OBrien]

Thank you for the great photos!

I think that we all would agree steel would be the ideal replacement for all of the aluminum parts. But the costs would prohibit most users from affording even the smaller vehicles.

If I had the means to produce at least the tracks and drive sprockets with steel, I would.

The next best thing would be to convince AT to harden their aluminum alloy in their tracks and to increase the height of the drive sprocket teeth by 2-3mm, which would (I think) solve the track durability and slippage issues I and others are experiencing.

cheers... Tom