Churchill Mk3 number 67

[Gary Richardson]

Hi all

I have started the build on my Churchill Mk3 which is likely to be a slow burn. At this point in time I seem to have more questions than answers regarding the modifications I would like to make. I am leaning towards a Mk3 AVRE after the Tank Museum supplied me with some drawings of the Canadian Mine Roller and an 8 ton derrick. The pack also contained drawings of the Petard mortar, Applique armour and the side brackets.
There are some basic starting points that I have not been able to find the answer to yet, I think that someone on the forum would probably know so here goes...

I know the early Churchills had grey primer which was quickly phased out for red oxide. Would the Churchill Mk3 AVREs have had red oxide primer either before or during the upgrade program in 1943-44 ?

In the photos below what were the fittings numbered 1-5 for, and what type of fasteners are they?

I like the idea of building the 8 ton derrick trailer with the generator but have not been able to confirm if they were ever used by Mk3 AVREs from the Normandy landings onwards. If anyone could confirm this or perhaps have photos it would be a great help.

8 ton derrick

Thanks in advance
Regards
Gary

[Gary Richardson]

Hi All

I have started work on the Churchill hull components. The usual degreasing using Upol, then deburring prior to etch priming.

Regards
Gary

Deburring and prepping

Degreasing with Upol

Etch priming

[David Skeldon]

Hi
I have a book with a photo in it of a Churchill with a crane attached and it has a white star on it which I think was for use in Europe,

[Gary Richardson]

Hi David

Thanks for the info about the derrick. Another piece of the jigsaw is put in place

Regards
Gary

[Shayne Sutton]

Hi all

I have started the build on my Churchill Mk3 which is likely to be a slow burn. At this point in time I seem to have more questions than answers regarding the modifications I would like to make. I am leaning towards a Mk3 AVRE after the Tank Museum supplied me with some drawings of the Canadian Mine Roller and an 8 ton derrick. The pack also contained drawings of the Petard mortar, Applique armour and the side brackets.
There are some basic starting points that I have not been able to find the answer to yet, I think that someone on the forum would probably know so here goes...

I know the early Churchills had grey primer which was quickly phased out for red oxide. Would the Churchill Mk3 AVREs have had red oxide primer either before or during the upgrade program in 1943-44 ?

In the photos below what were the fittings numbered 1-5 for, and what type of fasteners are they?
churchill mk3 bow MG armour question.jpg
churchill_mk3 drivers hatch questions.jpg

I like the idea of building the 8 ton derrick trailer with the generator but have not been able to confirm if they were ever used by Mk3 AVREs from the Normandy landings onwards. If anyone could confirm this or perhaps have photos it would be a great help.
Churchill and 8 ton derrick.jpg

Thanks in advance
Regards
Gary

Hi Gary,
I am building number 9 and have to same photos of the Canadian Mk 3, Do you have access to a lathe, I will be making the heads of the fasteners and just drilling the suitable holes and gluing them into place as finding a scale fastener will be impossible, I have started on the turret and what ever you do, do not compare the mantlet on the real tank to the one supplied, Armorpax make a lot of parts that can be used on the Churchill including the hatch latches. https://www.armorpax.net/wwii-allied-parts, scale fasteners https://www.modellbauschrauben.de/index.php?m=02_1 more parts https://model-motorcars.myshopify.com/c ... s-hardware

[Gary Richardson]

Hi all

Regarding the Churchill and 8 ton derrick, I have been trying to find out more information about the tank and the 8 ton derrick. The derrick is almost as long as the tank and together they would make an impressive model.
I do have some A4 size drawings of the derrick supplied by the Tank Museum, but I have not been able to find any further photos or details regarding who made them or their official designation.
As for the Churchill with the WD number T68738 C, I am still trying to find out the details such as when, where and who operated it. Despite hours on the web I have not made any progress with the census number.
If anyone has any info, or could point me in the right direction regarding the tank or derrick I would be very grateful.

Regards
Gary

[David Skeldon]

Hi,

The book that photo was in says the photo came from the Tank Museum, And quotes the number 2241/D6.
Maybe they can tell you more.


David

[Gary Richardson]

Good morning all

While I am still researching what tank to base mine on I have started to add detail to some parts, namely the drivers visor and the glacis plate.
I will also be adding some 10ba/11ba hex heads and the latching brackets to the visor and further details to the Glacis plate such as the brackets at each end. The detailing is the most enjoyable part of the build for me and as the research is taking longer than expected I find it quite relaxing .
I am 95% sure my build will be an AVRE Mk 3 with applique armour, brackets and a Petard mortar. I really want to add a significant extra such as a Canadian indestructible roller, 8 ton derrick, folding bridge etc. This is the part of the research that is taking a while as I want the AVRE Mk3 and attached equipment to be in the period from D-day until end of 1944 and I have gone down a few dead ends as more info came to light.

Regards
Gary

Detailing the drivers visor

[Phil Woollard]

Very interesting build indeed this one!

[Gary Richardson]

Hi all

I decided to add further relief detail to the drivers visor. It needed the centre hatch relief to make it more realistic. This required removing the two aluminium strips, cutting and shaping a brass panel and epoxy gluing them all back together. To remove the aluminium strips which had been epoxied in place I used my Dremel blow torch, then carefully slid a blade under them and they popped off.
I have ordered various BA and metric hex bolts including 1mm, 1.6mm, 10BA and 12BA to use as detailing and hopefully they will arrive fairly soon.

Regards
Gary

[Gary Richardson]

Hi,

The book that photo was in says the photo came from the Tank Museum, And quotes the number 2241/D6.
Maybe they can tell you more.


David

Good evening all

I have been in touch with the Tank Museum and they will let me buy a copy of the original photo. They also have a document which has diagrams and photos and a user guide for the 8 ton derrick and how to use it with a Churchill AVRE. It looks as if it is a post war document (1948) but pretty sure the AVRE is a Mk3.
The final piece of the puzzle will be solved if I can confirm details about Churchill AVRE T68738 C.
If anyone knows a way to confirm the identity, timeline etc please let me know.

Regards
Gary

[Gary Richardson]

Good evening all

While I wait for the Tank Museum documents to arrive I have continued detailing the glacis plate and visor. It was noticeable that the visor could not be opened past 90 degrees due to two of the cone head bolts clashing. When checking against a photo of a Mk3 the bolts are in the wrong positions so I set about altering them. A note of caution, due to the chamfer at the bottom of the glacis plate the lower bolt cannot be drilled all the way through. I suspect this is the reason Armortek placed them the way they are on the kit.
I have used 10BA hex bolts that are epoxied in place on the visor and will be making the latching system hence the two spare holes. I am really pleased with the amount of detail that can be added to the kit but suspect I will be ordering a shed load of small bolts, etc.

Regards
Gary

Realigning the hinge bolts

The detailing continues

[Gary Richardson]

Hi all

I have started to assemble the hull to see what changes I need to make for the connection points of the 8 ton derrick trailer. I have received the documents from the Tank Museum which contains diagrams, photos and a full description of how the derrick was attached and used.
I was worried that the derrick was not used on the Mk 3 AVRE during the last 18 months of the war. Luckily the document gives some background which I will add here as it may be of interest to those building a Churchill AVRE with fascine carrier and bundle.
8 TON DERRICK
The 8 ton derrick was based on an electric mobile crane made by Henry J Coles and used a Ford V8 30hp industrial engine. The length is 27' 5" (8.38m), the width is 7' 6" (2.28m) and the height is 7' (2.13m). The trailer with stowage weighed 3 tons 1.75cwt. When attached to the front of the Churchill the derrick and wheels weighed 2 tons 3.5cwt.
The generator would be attached to the rear of the tank using the two existing eyes, the tank would then move into to position to have the derrick attached at the front. The tanks own towing cable was used to assist in raising the derrick which could go to a maximum of 60 degrees. The load was dependent on the angle of the derrick. The tank could be moved with the derrick in place using 1st and 2nd gears.
The derrick and trailer were designed to provide a mobile crane unit particularly suitable for loading fascines onto the fascine cradle on AVRE's. The derrick could be used by a crew of four men and used on any Churchill AVRE Mk2 to Mk7. It could be assembled in under 30 minutes.

At 1/6 scale:
Length 54.83" ( 1392mm)
Width 15" (381mm)
Height 14" (356mm)

This should make an impressive model but as they say in the movies ' I am going to need a bigger car'. I am looking at what materials I will need to build the trailer and at the same time keep the weight reasonable for when it is attached to the Churchill. I still have a lot of research to do especially concerning the wheels and generator. It would be nice to have the generator cover removable to show the engine, radiator, and electrical components. I hope to have the derrick as a working model capable of lifting a fascine.
In the meantime I have a lot of hull parts to degrease and etch prime

Regards
Gary

Starting the hull assembly

[Gary Richardson]

Good morning all

On this bright and frosty morning it looks like a research day as it is far too cold to work in the garage. I have a couple of questions I am hoping you may be able to provide the answer to.

1) Regarding the following paragraph in the 8 ton derrick instruction (dated 1948) and seeming to apply to the Churchill AVRE's and hollebone attachments. What does SMS stand for in the annotation ' SMS modification 7265 must have been carried out ' . (Is the 3rd letter an S ?)

2) Does anyone have a photo from an AVRE that shows what the modification might have been ( bushed holes in idler horn ? )

Thanks in advance.

Gary

[Gary Richardson]

Hi all

Just a quick update. I have spent some time in the garage now its a bit warmer and almost completed the drivers visor detailing. Just some weld detail and adding an angle to some of the aluminium strips left to do.
After doing a lot of research and with help from Sheldon at the Tank Museum archive, I have decided to build the Churchill as a Mk3 AVRE with petard mortar and it will have an 8 ton derrick to tow around. Interestingly, I have found out through the photos I have now obtained, that Churchill AVRE Mk3 number T68738 C appears to have been used with different types of derricks. The first large photo I received from Sheldon shows an early derrick with no undercarriage adjustment to allow the trailer to be balanced. I suspect this photo dates from early 1944 when they were in need of an AVRE with derrick capable of reloading fascines after the Normandy landings. The tank has obviously been worked hard and is covered in dirt, etc. The photos from the 1948 documentation show the same tank but it is very clean and the photos are staged to give a clear side view of the derrick erection process. In both periods the tank does not have applique armour on the hull but does have the hull brackets attached. I have also read that Mk2 and Mk3 AVRE's were used in Korea but not in a front line capacity, so perhaps the later style derrick was used there.
I have already ordered and received the aluminium plates I was going to use for applique armour so I will make the plates and decide later whether or not to add them. I still need to find some more info about T68738 C as it would be nice to confirm where and when it was in service.
Finally, I will be concentrating on the Churchill build ,to save complicating this build thread I will start a new thread for the 8 ton derrick, this may not be for a while as I have a lot of parts to source, but I did just get a 1/6 scale Ford V8 flathead off a certain auction site. so that's part of the generator sorted.

Regards
Gary

Just some welds required