Panzer III / IV Cupola - Request to Mike @ Toyrific

[Jim Fowler]

Mike,

I think your work on the cupola for the Tigers and Panthers is awesome work. So, I would like to ask, if you have considered making a similar assembly for the Panzer III / Panzer IV? I have both, and while the original units that come with the kits are good, they are sort of pale in the comparison to yours.

I am posting this request here to see if others share my interest

[Martin Diessel]

I would be interested, too! Martin

[Mike Stannard (toyrific)]

Hi Jim

It is possible, but there are problems involved. Mainly covering my time to make it worth while. The Tiger cupola ended up a fair profit for me with sales of over 20 units, however the Panther cupola which has only sold 9 units was about a break even situation for me. Both these cupolas took lots of hours of development to produce. Due to the price of these parts they are limited to few hobbyists, I feel that I would not be able to sell enough of the PzIII/IV cupolas to cover my cost and time involved in making them.

I have thought about this and in fact started making a master for the PzIV a couple of years ago, I will post a picture of it later. According to scaled drawings the Pz III and IV cupolas look the same but are different sizes, can anyone confirm this.

My reasoning behind this is with somewhere between 500 and 1000 Tigers models on the market I was only able to sell just over 20 cupolas, with the Panther there are only around 300 to 500 models, the Pz III/IV there are less than 200 models out there so I feel I would be able to sell less than 10 units which will not be worth my time.

Now if the Pz III and IV cupolas are identical and I could get at least 20 firm orders I could make them. However these have a lot of working components, with lots of interior detail so the price would likely be in the $800.00 range assembled and around $550.00 as a kit.

Regards
Mike

[Mike Stannard (toyrific)]

Pictures of the Panzer III/IV cupola I started some time ago.



Regards
Mike

[Jim Fowler]

Mike,

I want to apologize for noi replying earlier, I was trying to change my profile info and locked myself out of the forum. It took a bit to get that straightened out.

I really admire the work you have done on the Tiger and Panther Cupolas - its absolutely !!!"TOP-SHELF"!!!

But, with that said, I am not sure I have the right to ask you to pursue this when it seems only two of us have an interest....

maybe we could revisit this later???

[Adrian Harris]

I've just happened upon this thread, which I missed the first time around.

Now that a new Panzer IV has been released, is there any more interest in a Stannard Cupola ?

Adrian.

[Christian Steinhauer]

Hello,

if it's not profitable for Mike how about a project group. Constructing together
and everybody of the group makes one or two parts of the cupola for the whole
group. Only a suggestion.

[John Fitzsimons]

I am interested in this project. I have not started my Panzer IV yet but cupola is one part I would like to work on. I want to add full set of view ports for a start which I think I can make. I would like to know more about the working parts of the turret. Stephen White's panzer 111 has an excellent turret fitted.
I will also do some work on the shurzen and bump stops. I was wondering if white metal would be strong enough for the bump stops or would it be necessary to cast in brass?

[Ray Brown]

g'day guys. whilst i see quality in all mike's work its the price thats the killer for me. steve's can't do it for nothing and needs to cover costs.
but i can dream.

cheers

[John Fitzsimons]

Unfortunately Ray, parts will remain expensive due to low turnover of parts. The investment in design of parts, making of masters, moulds,casting and finishing is quite high. Thats without going into cast of equipment and raw materials. To go through the process only to sell a handfull of parts is hardly worthwhile. When you get into working with brass parts where everything is made individually it gets even more expensive. Mike has to think in a business way work out how best he can spend his time in meeting customers needs. Unfortunately not enough panzer IVs or IIIs out there.
As far as I can see a cheap cupola in metal is unlikely. I think it will be possible to make some modifications to the existing kit part. I can see on the forum that detailing is already in progress in some of the builds.

I am sure sombody will come up with some parts not currently available in the near future. We will just have to save our pocket money till then.

[Ray Brown]

mater, i don't disagree. thats why i said i'd love his works but can't afford it. it's not personal, it's business & if i can afford it i will purchase from Mike.

cheers

[John Fitzsimons]

I'm sure Mike would not take offence from your admiration of his work and I meant none to you either. You are doing brilliant work at the moment on the panzer IV. One of the first to start which is very hard. The rest get the benefit of seeing how you solved problems with the kit.

[Adrian Harris]

If the whole cupola is a bit of a stretch, then how about just correct profile visor shields, possibly in two pieces so that they can be positioned open or closed ?

Adrian.

[Mike Stannard (toyrific)]

Hi Guys

Firstly I would like to thank John Fitzsimons for his excellent explanation of why it is sometimes not possible to produce parts for any manufacturer, he has hit the nail on the head. It's all down to time, cost and profit. I would also like to say that I am not offended by any comments on my products and service, good or bad, good comments are nice to receive and bad ones tell me were I am going wrong and gives me the chance to rectify it if I can.

A happy customer will continue to give me their patronage, a unhappy customer that does not comment on a problem and just goes away is a lost customer. That person could also be a good one if I am informed of a problem and allowed to fix it.

I know my products are expensive, but I believe they are good value for the price, over $650,000.00 in sales proves it. However, not everyone has the right income, which is why some of us drive Ford's and others Jaguar's. I drive a Ford.

It can produce a working cupola for the Pz III and IV but it will be "expensive" and will require a minimum of around 20 confirmed orders just to cover my time in research, design, cost, and production.

To better explain my reasons for not producing the Pz III-IV cupola I will give you a update on my Tiger and Panther cupola. I will use estimated Armortek product runs of these tanks as these are my main customer base.

Tiger I and II cupola. This was a worthwhile production.
First introduced in May 2010. Estimated Armortek Tiger 1 and II's on the market 700 to 800.
Total sales of all sets for these tanks. TI and T2, 3632 plus about 1000 general AFV parts.
(General AFV parts are Fire Extinguishers, Antennas, Antenna Bases. Padlocks, Tool Brackets and ID Flags)

TT37 TI and II Cupolas (Assemble and Kits) 33
TT37K1 TI and II Armortek Cupola Upgrade Kit 13
TT37K6 T1 and II Cupola external detail only 4
Total sales $19,100 Estimated total cost to produce for market $5000.00. Mass production cost not included.
As some of these have also been sold to non Armortek owners I estimate only 6% of Armortek Tigers have my cupola products fitted.

Panther Cupola. To date I have not covered my time and investment in this product.
First introduced August 2010. Estimated Armortek Panthers on the market 200 to 300.
Total sales of all sets for this tank. Panther 680 plus about 200 general AFV parts.
(General AFV parts are Fire Extinguishers, Antennas, Antenna Bases. Padlocks, Tool Brackets and ID Flags)

Pan 24 Panther Cupola (Assemble and Kits) 14
Pan 24K1 Panther Armortek Cupola Upgrade Kit 5
Total sales $6465. Estimated total cost to produce for market $5000.00. Mass production cost not included.
I estimate only 5% of Armortek Panthers have my cupola products fitted.

For comparison here are the statistics for the Panzer III and Panzer IV
Panzer III
First introduced August 2011. Estimated Armortek Panzer III on the market 50 to 100.
Total sales of all sets for this tank. 255

Panzer IV
First introduced Sept 2006. Estimated Armortek Panzer IV on the market 50 to 100.
Total sales of all sets for this tank. 555

With the number of potential customers that own a Panzer III or IV and considering the purchases of cupolas for the Tiger and Panther I feel my maximum sales for the cupola would be around 10 to 15 units. This would be only a break even situation for me.

With the complicity of the Panzer cupola and to make it mostly functional with working hatch, adjustable viewing slits, vision block mounts and clear resin or acrylic vision blocks will need about 80 to 90 parts, plus fixtures. This will mean a retail cost of around $400.00 for a kit and $600.00 assembled.

I have put a considerable amount of time into research of this cupola and also made the basic drum master. If I produce this cupola it will be all metal including the main drum. I have the basic idea of how to make the drum all metal, but still have a lot of designing to do to make the vision armored covers work and how to be able to make molds for casting.

This would likely be a 3 to 4 month project to fit it into my current work load. The ball is in your court, step up to the plate and show your interest and I will consider having a go at it. If I do I would like the loan of a original Armortek cupola to work with, maybe I can figure out a way to just upgrade it.

Regards
Mike

[Jim Fowler]

Well, since it was a request initiated by me, I would like to say that the best protype seem to date was Tim Bowmans's plastic-printed design. I am not sure if he ever offered it up for sale though.

Also, there may be an alternate to be had on the horizon....there is a great rumor goning around that Dragon may be offering up a static model with one.... I figure such a kit might settle some other part issues/concerns I have as well.

At the prices I have been given for cost of the cupola - well, it may be as cost effective to buy such a static kit.

So, I put both the Panzer III and IV on the shelf for a bit. I have had some health issues anyway and it just seemsed like the best thing for me - given my situation.

Well, its the plan anyway......