The Second World War Tank Crisis

[Stephen White]

It's a brave man who tries to separate myth from reality where WW2 tanks are concerned. Such popular views as "British tanks until late in the war were mechanical abortions" (Corelli Barnett), "the scandal of British tank manufacture..." (Alan Moorehead) have spawned a powerful and enduring myth that the only nation to produce an effective tank in WW2 were the Germans. The myth is so strong that the obvious shortcomings of the Panther and Tiger are overlooked. In any objective analysis by those who understand armoured warfare, those two panzers had relatively poor flank protection, were chronically unreliable, lacked operational level mobility and were not suited to mass production. They really don't deserve the adulation that is routinely given them, just as the Spitfire wasn't the only successful WW2 fighter.

Dick Taylor has spent a lifetime in the world of armour and unlike other so called "influencers" who make a living on YouTube, he has done the hard work in the archives and has thought deeply about the subject. His latest book, "The Second World War Tank Crisis - the Fall and Rise of British Armour 1919-45" looks at how British tank design improved to the point that the late war tanks, particularly Comet and Centurion, were in many ways the best of their generation, superior to those of the US and Germany, and how the latter came to be the most successful main battle tank of the post war era.

But I'm biased, as Dick served in my Regiment and has continued to produce some outstanding and unique research. So, for anyone interested in a spot of myth-busting, this looks like a great read. Might help explain why Armortek is unlikely ever to run out of customers for the Tiger.

[mark lawson]

Sounds like a fascinating read Steve, I have aways wondered why Armortek have not yet built a Cromwell.

[Tim Page]

Because Tigers sell better.
Plain and simple.
People who think of a ww2 tank will normally think Tiger, Panther, Sherman and maybe T34.
Anything after that is a bonus.

Just my humble opinion.

Tim

[Chang]

... I have aways wondered why Armortek have not yet built a Cromwell.

I believe it will be.

[Steve Stuart]

Well, as I have effectively 'The Armortek Cromwell', curtesy of Mr Skeldon, who reverse engineered a Comet. I need to say that it is a great model. It runs nicely, like the Comet, and offers a wide potential for being modified to suit the builders preference for a variant. Also, it is not too big or heavy which along with a Gun that keeps within the tank's length keeps it simple for transport. Finally, by now Armorpax will have a shed load of upgrade parts to add to the build?
I hope I have not overstated the case!
Steve

[Jerry Carducci]

I'd definitely go for a Cromwell. Before he passed I was working with Martin Schneider of Geiβwerk to make a Cromwell track.
I searched all over but wasn't able to find a single link example to purchase to provide him or else he would have done it years ago....

Jerry

[Steve Stuart]

Getting back to the book, I am now on the third chapter and looks as though the recommendation is spot on!
Steve

[Mark Heaps]

Whilst respecting the OP I would like to question something.
For me the Centurion was not a WW2 tank. Designed, built & available but war ended before it saw action in WW2.
Saw admirable service later but not World War 2.

I was doing table-top wargaming from an early age, WW2 & allied.
Many years later running out the far gate of Höhne, one of the guys pointed out the gate-guard was a Cromwell tring to impress the others with his knowledge.
I shot him down in flames by identifying it as a Comet.
Mark

[Stephen White]

That’s very Clever, Dick wrote the book though and I’m sure he knows which way is up.

[Chris Hall]

Mark -

To me, Centurion is most definitely a WW2 tank. Centurion was on the drawing board in 1943, designed as a Panther-killer, and became operational for Operation Sentry in May 1945. The error you make is saying that WW2 ended in April 1945. The War in Europe ended then, but WW2 did not end until the Japanese surrender in August 1945. So it was clearly in service in WW2.

And what if the Western Allies had decided to carry on over the Elbe, to destroy Communism once and for all ? That's what Patton wanted to do, and the remnants of the German Army would probably have joined in. Centurion would have been involved then, possibly alongside any remaining Panthers. Or what if Japan hadn't surrendered after Nagasaki, requiring the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands (Operations Downfall, Olympic and Coronet) in late 1945 ? Centurion would probably have been involved then too (and, incidentally, the Russians could have fielded IS3). But these are counterfactuals, which wargaming can inform as a what-if.

I'm not intending to "shoot you down in flames". I'm just applying a different perspective that you may not be aware of. And that's what Real History is all about.

Stay well,

Chris

[Stephen White]

Couldn’t agree more Chris.

To quote Dick Taylor: “Although the “Cent” never saw operational service, it is appropriate to discuss it in its earliest forms, as its heritage makes it a genuine Second World War tank.” He’s quite right. At the Oct 1943 meeting of the Tank Board, the DIrector Royal Armoured Corps confirmed the specification for a new heavy cruiser...to defeat current and likely future German armour, based on the experience of previous years. I’ve a copy of the report by FVEE of their exploitation of Panther and a comparison with the cardinal points specs for Cent, which indicates clearly the influence Panther had on the design of Cent. I think I put something to that effect on my Cent blog. The important point here is that Cent represented the culmination of British WW2 thinking about what armoured capability should deliver through the tank.

[Mark Heaps]

Hi Chris,
No where in my post did I say the war ended in April 1945.
I just pointed out that the Cent never saw action in the 2nd World War. The first ones were being rushed to the front but did not get there before hostilities ceased in Europe.
Also I would like to point out that the Cent 2 which went on to serve in Korea and later on was completely different to the Cent 1´s that almost got used in WW2.
Although very relevant to British tank design at the time, also post war and further on leading to Chieftain, Challenger 1 then Challenger 2, for me the Centurion was not a second world war tank.

Purely my opinion. The early Cents were not operational during WW2 and therefor I do not class them as a WW2 tank,
Mark

[Jerry Carducci]

I've always read that the Centurian, although a very significant tank (and one of my faves in 1/25 scale) was considered a post -WWII machine. The early prototypes were equipped with the ordnance 17pdr which was essentially the same gun as the Firefly version of the Sherman until the 20pdr came along later. A potent weapon surely that would have with the up-armored ability of the Centurian made a good account of itself.

I think it's a question of semantics. If someone wants to consider it a WWII tank then knock yourself out but it's probably a WWII tank just as the American T-95/ T-28 is a 'WWII tank' or perhaps the German Maus but obviously not in quite the same way (!). I personally consider a a WWII combat machine one that actually participated in a WWII battle somewhere not that it merely existed during WWII. In terms of semantics I believe "WWII -era tank" is better suited.

We all have our cherished faves and I have no desire to squish anyone's. Call it a WWII tank if that works for you.

Jerry

[John Clarke]

Was the Maus or E100 a second world war tank?
They never saw any action either
If tracks were laid during the time of conflict, it must be a AFV of that era by definition, otherwise it's just another history rewrite.

[Stephen White]

John, as ever you make a very valid and amusing point. To illustrate how profoundly sterile this line of argument is, the A13 Mk III Covenanter was undoubtedly a WW2 tank: originally designed in 1939-40, 1200 were produced by 1942 and yet not one saw operational service. It was conceivably the worst tank of the War but it was unquestionably a product of WW2, as was Centurion. That is the point being made here by Dick Taylor and by me - that Centurion represents the culmination of British WW2 tank design. It was the tank of its time. That it had huge stretch potential and went on to be the definitive MBT, enjoying a long and successful international career is beside the point. It was fundamentally and unarguably a product of WW2 and specifically of the British experience of combat against the Panzers.