Morning Vince
I also meant to say that tile adhesive does tend to be more brittle than say Milliput, so It will show the colour of the adhesive if you knock it?
Thanks for the info, unfortunately I’m just using an IPad, not a computer, so photos are in library, not as files? I could email them?
Great following your build by the way, I’ve just got to the point of installing all the electronics in mine, .
Phil.
Fitted Steve's convoy light. At the moment using temporary 2mm bolts to fix it to the rear plate but I will be changing them to 2mm bolts with one size smaller hex heads. I am lucky that I am expecting some from Germany.
Convoy light
I also played a bit more with the tile adhesive. As Phil said, it is brittle but it is so easy to apply that I will be using it. I had used the No.2 tool previously and today I used the No.3 zim tool.
It's no use thinking about it and practicing on scrap metal so today I finally took the plunge and applied some simulated zimmerit to the tank. This is my first ever attempt. I have been looking at other peoples results and still not sure if I could get the same look.
I will not be offended if you guys think that my effort looks like crap. I need to learn from my mistakes. So before I continue I need your thoughts. It will not be a problem to remove it and start again. If you click on the photos you can really zoom in.
Looks ok for a first attempt mate, it's a bit on the thin side, it's a rough as any real Tiger 1, some make it far to regimented. Try a bit of paint before you take it all off as it may look quite good with some colour!
Mechanical engineer.
2 Youtube channels, Phil Woollard and Magpiespyro. Facebook/ Phil Woollard.
Commission builds considered. Pm for my email.
So after sleeping on it, yesterday I removed the zim and re-applied it. I made the layer slightly thicker and also changed the orientation of the zim tool which I think gives a better profile.
I think there is an improvement but now I am worrying that I might have made it look too rough. So Phil (or anybody else) can you be patient with me and have another look and give me an honest opinion. It's no problem to re-do it again.
Hi Vince, great posts. I have been having trouble sleeping and was looking at AT forum for hours but somehow missed your updates until right now. Sorry!
I like your precision with the tool. Lining it up carefully the way you have looks authentic. From the pictures I have studied it seems to be the case that most of the Zimmerit jobs on the Late Tiger 1 tanks were nearly perfectly applied. By perfect I mean PERFECT.
Since that was the case. I thought long and hard about how to reproduce it in 1:6 scale on my Armortek kit. Since I have some experience with Zimmerit in 1:35 scale.
Here is the conclusion I have come to.
Don’t try to be perfect. The reason you will never get it perfect is two fold. They did not use a scraper tool and we don’t really have a 1:6 Zimmerit. They spread the Zimmerit on with a spatula and let it semi harden. They then came back later and poked the coating with a another tool or spatula to get the texture. It took them 3 days to do th tank.
Since I decided to use the tile and scraper technique I had to make a decision. Do I try to make it look perfect and fail or do I get artistic and just do it a little funky?
I ended up putting on the tile adhesive sloppily and then making the Zimmerit a little “wonky” just for fun. Don’t forget it’s an effect not an exact reproduction.
I am happy with the effect.
Here’s my last piece of advice. If you do something for the first time like Zimmerit or camo. Start on the back of the tank. This will be the least pronounced area so if you make mistakes they are less obvious. Then you will build confidence and master the next side more quickly.
Just take it slow and have fun. Your energy will show up in the finish. If you are stressed while you are applying the Zimmerit you will be less happy with the finish.
I hope my experience will be helpful to you. Good luck.
As Brian says " don't worry about getting it to perfect", I would't bother with zim under the skirts so much and if you present your Tiger with a piece of skirt missing it probably would't have had zim applied there any way. Just about anything goes with this stuff but to get it to look like a twelve inch high guy mixed it, applied it,run out of it, lent on it, sat on it, left it to long after lunch then cut the vertices with a knife like tool and so on...
Be a little random and don't rush it, take a small hammer to an area and crack some off to expose the red oxide base coat, now there's a photo I have somewhere of a Panther (all be it knocked out) that has just the pattern left after the zim has fallen off maybe when the vehicle burned out, now that would take some doing to replicate!............Phil.
Mechanical engineer.
2 Youtube channels, Phil Woollard and Magpiespyro. Facebook/ Phil Woollard.
Commission builds considered. Pm for my email.
I was told, many years ago, not to stress about decorating a house, because "you paint from 6 inches away but live from 6 feet away".
Once the tank is finished, you'll probably never get as close to it as you are when you're building it, so things which stand out now will blend in with time, especially once it's painted.
Thanks Brian, Phil and Adrian for your comments. I will heed your advice leave it like that. As it is, today I received the fasteners I had ordered so now I can finish the other rear mudguard.
Worked on the rear mudguard and nearly finished it and to take a break started working on a different part of the model.
Some time ago I decided to change the kit turret joint protector (bullet ring) and make one more similar to the real thing which is basically divided into three sections. So using the information from the tiger1.info website I drew one of those sections in CAD. Took this drawing and a .dxf file to the laser cutters and the three sections where cut.
Turret joint protector sections
I used the same width and thickness for these sections as the kit part. If I had to do it exactly in 1/6 scale it should be a little wider and thicker. As I did not know if it would interfere with other components I thought I would play it safe. Another thing I wanted to add was to add the bevel on the outside of each section. I have been thinking about how to achieve this for some time. Grinding with a Dremel was always the obvious solution but doing it free hand was going to be "iffy" at best. Then a couple of days ago I had one of those moments. Why not use my T & C grinder instead. It has a decent table and I can fix it at the desired angle. So today I ground the bevel on one of the sections and happy to say it turned out good.
Regarding the Zimmerit discussions, I think all of the applications of zim can be considered authentic. Here's why.
In 1944, when you consider the allies were bombing the crap out of Germany, particularly targeting factories that manufactured aircraft and armor, I would think Zimmerit would have been thought of as a luxury. Yes, the official instructions mandated that it be included as part of the final delivery, however, I would think the immediate effort would be to get the tank out of the factory and into the hands of the fighting forces.
Thus, if I were a production manager in any one of the plants producing the Tiger (or other armored vehicles that used zim), I would tell my floor managers to slap a coat of primer paint and if it looks like you can apply Zimmerit to it before it is scheduled to leave the plant, go ahead and slap on the zim material. and...
If it looks like you won't be able to apply the zim before the next allied bombing raid, get the tank out and send along a barrel or two of the zim. Along with it, send instructions on applying it.
Same with the paint -- get a coat of primer (check the store rooms and use what the allies left us from their bombing, probably mostly red oxide), and send green, etc. paint out to the field with the tank and let the tank crews paint them in whatever camoflage scheme they want.
In war, you make due with what circumstances dictate, and also, with the creative skills of your NCOs. This is true today, as it was in 1944.
The application of Zimmerit and the camoflage or other paint schemes were in context of the situation. You really can't go wrong.
In 1944, when you consider the allies were bombing the crap out of Germany, particularly targeting factories that manufactured aircraft and armor, I would think Zimmerit would have been thought of as a luxury. Yes, the official instructions mandated that it be included as part of the final delivery, however, I would think the immediate effort would be to get the tank out of the factory and into the hands of the fighting forces.
Sorry but no!
In 1944 intill sept no Panzer left the factory without zimmerit and their RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb base coat.
If so the Panzer would not be accepted and the man in charge would find himself on the next train to the East front, you dont mess with the Waffenamt Heer instructions in the Third Reich Allied bombing or not.
After reading more about German tank production and zimmerit in particular, I have to agree with your basic assessment.
That is, zim would have been applied diligently to production tanks based on an order from the German High Command, OKH (Oberkommando des Heeres), dated the 29th December 1943. Notably, the Order did not include turrets or track guards. However, we see photos of zim on turrets and gun mantels of some armored vehicles, including the Mark VI, so I would guess it was as useful as a camouflage (when painted) as it was a defense against anti-tank magnetic mines. Curiously, one old German tanker who survived the war related how his tank had zim but just as many did not, and how the zim would break off from contact with solid obstacles, so there were lots of areas on the tank that no longer carried zim.
Zimmerit was officially discontinued for factory application from the 9th of September 1944, however, some sources suggest there must have been quantities shipped out to units, as it was not ordered discontinued for field application (which would include foreign maintenance depots and even factories) until the 7th of October. Based on interviews after the war with the German Director of Production, the paste itself was supplied to the Henschel works in drums directly from Chemische Werke Zimmer in Berlin (although other plants were also involved in the manufacture) and had the consistency of soft putty.
It is possible that many vehicles got rushed through the application process. As a result some may only have received a single layer of the material due to the constraints on production, or supply. It’s also likely that many vehicles were partially through the process in the factory when the order to discontinue came in. Even at the factories, given the novelty of the material, it is also likely that many vehicles did not get a sufficiently thick two-layer coating. A thin single coating would dry faster so would have aided in speeding factory production. It’s also quite likely that tankers may have imitated Zimmerit on their vehicles using cement, but probably for the camouflage value only.
Concerning paint, based on what I've read, there was a shift from dark yellow to red oxide primers after about Sep 14, 1944, however, dark yellow remained the official basecoat color until October 1944. Assembly plants were then directed to apply camo directly over red oxide primer. There's been much speculation but no real evidence as for the reason for this change. One possibility is that yellow was in short supply due to Allied bombing raids on German industry. The other is that dark yellow became less useful as a camo color as the physical and tactical environments changed in late '44.
Opinions vary greatly on this subject, as information about zimmerit and paint schemes vary, at least somewhat.
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