Elephant Rain Gutter?

Dave Jones · Post by **Dave Jones** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:03 am

I've been doing a bit of research for my build by looking at contemporary photo's of the Elephant and have noticed that there appears to be an omission from the AT kit.

From what I can see of all photo's of the Elephant (not Ferdinand) there appears to be what looks like a rain gutter attached to the front plate of the fighting compartment that extends to both sides of the vehicle from either side of the main gun, angling down at about 15 degrees. I assume this was put in place to stop rainwater from running down the fighting compartment and into the grilles.

I think this is something we Elephant builders need to include as it seems quite a noticeable feature.

Dave.

Steve Norris · Post by **Steve Norris** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:48 am

Hi Dave
You are correct, an easy item to add and essential as it is so visible.
Regards
Steve

Dave Jones · Post by **Dave Jones** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 am

I can't tell from the photo's that I'm looking at but I'm guessing it's square section?

Dave

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:01 pm

Dave, it's an "L" section, ie a flat strip with one side bent up to form a lip. It's then welded to the front armour. Sorry about the quality of the phtotos, which I took in poor light and have had to zoom a lot. I can only see the gutter on the vehicle's left side but the absence on the right side on the Bovvy example doesn't mean a lot as museum examples are often incomplete. (Click on the image to see full size, it's clipped in this page)

Regards

Stephen

Dave Jones · Post by **Dave Jones** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm

That's good info.

Thanks Steve.

Dave

Mark Heaps · Post by **Mark Heaps** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:29 pm

Whilst a very distinctive feature, I am not convinced it was a rain gutter.

For me as ex-REME, it looks like a perfect mount point for a crew shelter. Tarpaulin with a weighted rear edge that fits in the "gutters", gun barrel supports the ridge of the "tent", and you have a very nice cosy dry space above the warm engine decks for sleeping and admin when not in action.

Mark

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 pm

Dave, hi. I had another look after I made the comment that the Bovvy Elephant only had the gutter on one side. In this screenshot from the "Tank Overhaul" episode, you can just see that the welding marks are present on the right side. This was taken before the so-called restoration and clearly indicates the gutter was present on both sides.

The Kubinka Ferdinand does not have them today but this doesn't''t necessarily mean they were never fitted.

If I've correctly identified these as Elephants, they do have gutters on both sides and they're straight, unlike the Bovvy example.

Nice try Mark but if the basha theory were correct, why wouldn't the gutters slope down from level with the top of the barrel? Otherwise, if the basha followed the gutter line, it would be small for a midget.

All the best.

Stephen

Mark Heaps · Post by **Mark Heaps** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:18 pm

Hi Stephan,

Are the photos you posted as you found them or have you photo-shopped them to highlight these "gutters". If a standard fitment, surely they would blend in with the camouflage scheme and not be as noticeable as they are.If the images have not been photo-shopped, this would suggest a field modification.
If it was an authorised and ordered modification, then that will be recorded somewhere in the documentation for the vehicle type.

I still do not believe it to be a rain gutter. They could have got the same effect a lot quicker and a lot easier by an L-channel welded along the front edge and down the sides of the casement.

Mark

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:21 pm

Photos as found. Moving on..... S

Steve Norris · Post by **Steve Norris** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:34 pm

Just to add to the gutter thread, it appears that these gutters were added when the Ferdinands were upgraded to Elefants, I have not seen them fitted to Ferdinands but someone may prove me wrong.
Regards
Steve

Dave Jones · Post by **Dave Jones** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:55 am

Steve, I agree. Looks like it was a feature on Elefant but not Ferdinand. So factory added at the time of conversion would make sense.

Dave

simon_manning · Post by **simon_manning** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:05 pm

photoshop,? rain gutters?, tarpaulin channels,? with all that detail on the front of the tank, hatches, engine gratings/air intakes gun mantlet, i would say its a combination of tarp channel and gutter for transport purposes, cover those engine gratings over Mr Porsche before she gets wet and wont start, again. we need one of the experts to read this thread, regards simon.

Per Sonnervik · Post by **Per Sonnervik** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:35 am

I´ve researched this vehicle now for 4-5 years both inside and outside and I my conclution is that these are rain gutters. You´d want to avoid rain entering the engine bay as it contains the two generators. These gutters are L-shaped as Stephen pointed out, which can be seen in the photo below (from Bovington´s exhibition). I´ve circled the standard German bracket for strapping down the tarp over the engine deck, this could be found around the engine deck.

These gutters appear on Ferdinand as well, probably some field mods as their angle varies. Below is a photo from a s.PJ. Abt 653 before the Kursk battle. Note that tarp brackets are found on the upper front below the rain gutter - this can be seen on other vehicles as well;

Hope this helps to settle the question.

Per

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:45 am

Per, you nailed it with that photo. The caption describes it as a Jagdpanzer Tiger(P) Ferdinand Fgst 150012 coded 112 of 1st Kompanie, Schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung 653, commanded by Fw Rolf Schleicher. The photo was taken in the Kuliki assembly area in June 1943,ie before Kursk.

Which confirms

- they are rain channels, fitted both sides of the upper front armour

- they were added as in-service mods to Ferdinand in Mid1943,within a couple of months of the vehicles reaching operational units.

- the mods were associated with fixtures to attach a sheet to protect the engine decks

- they were carried forward into the conversion to Elephant

Love these research challenges.

Stephen

Endex.

Kent Wiik · Post by **Kent Wiik** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:56 am

Hi all,

Per is correct they are rain gutters.

The Ferdinands left the Alkett factory to their units without their gun shield and those rain gutters.
They was installed by their field workshop during the units training before Kursk.

Just after Kursk survivors had some urgent needed overhaul in the Dnepropetrovsk "K-Works" and on the list of superstructure work the rain gutters are mentioned.
Pleas note this is not the Ferdinand - Elefant conversion, that was done 3 months later at Alkett in Austria.

All of this can be found in the thick book "Combat history of Schvere Panzerjäger Abteilung 653"

Kind regards
Kent