3rd party insurance (Haftpflichtversicherung)

[Mark Heaps]

May be useful info for other german owners.
I have today had it confirmed in writing from Provinzial ( a german insurance provider) that an Armortek Kingtiger is covered by my personal 3rd party insurance policy (Privathaftpflichtversicherung)with them. It falls under their category of radio-controlled land vehicles (covered by the standard policy) and size or weight of the model is in no way relevant to the insurance cover.
No need for me to arrange a seperate Modellhalterhaftplichtversicherung (Model owners 3rd party insurance).

Mark

[Peter Silcock]

Mark - that is interesting and appears to differ from the standard UK domestic insurance which only covers you for your liability as owner and/or occupier of your home.(I note use of drones has been added to the exclusions). Liability for damage caused by your tank in public places would not be covered- hence the need for extra insurance. I presume your policy is then a specific personal liability insurance added to your household insurance?

[Mark Heaps]

Peter
Yes, in Germany Personal Liability is not included in either House insurance (Gebäudeversicherung)or House contents insurance (Hausratsversicherung). It is a seperate insurance, Haftplichtversicherung or personal liabilty insurance. Due to the proliferation of drones, I understand that a lot of german insurance providers have removed coverage for damage caused by remotely-controlled vehicles from their personal liabilty policys altogether.
Mine, with Provinzial, has limitations. Airborne models are only covered up to a certain weight and limited to the type of power source used. However it seems that Provinzial has no problem with land models, whether wheeled or tracked, no matter what scale they are.
Mark

[Stephen White]

Peter, I have a household policy with NFU and have recently had re-confirmation in writing that my public liability cover does extend to operation of my Armortek models in public, with no extra policy loading. Regards. Stephen

[Peter Silcock]

Stephen that's also interesting. Its been a few years since I worked in the insurance industry but back then it was common for Insurers to say something is covered and then say they made a "mistake" when they turned down a claim. If its not too much trouble I would be interested in knowing which section of the policy NFU are referring to when they say that personal liability is covered other than relating to ownership or occupation of a property. Edit Stephen I have just checked the NFU policy and I see the policy extends to include liability arising out of "private pursuits" and there are no relevant exclusions so there is cover. Unusual wording that. It obviously is worth people checking their various insurances so that they are not duplicating cover unnecessarily.

[dennypatterson]

Stephen, I used to be ins, by NFU 3 times the premiums more than any one else, for the same cover. but when I mentioned models,did,nt want to know...Denny.

[Chris Hall]

This subject came up as an issue at this year's TankMod, as Mark & Gill weren't there, so we weren't covered by Armortek's Public Liability (PL) policy. Bovington said that they wanted to see individual cover and, in these litigious days, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Show organisers asked the same question. And, even if you only run your tank in the garden, or at a local park, it doesn't take much imagination to hear an irate parent shouting that you crushed his child's foot just because the little darling got in the way .....

It strikes me that there are 3 possible solutions (NB. UK only):

1. See if your House Insurance covers it, as Stephen has.

2. Join a recognised Club. Both the UK Tank Club and the Southern Armour Group subscriptions include PL cover as standard - plus you get the benefit of invites to their events. They both have Facebook pages if you want to enquire. Subscriptions are around £15 - £20 pa.

3. Obtain your own cover from a broker. I know that Denny has done this.

But, as I say, getting PL cover can only be a Good Thing. Saves you worrying while you should be enjoying yourself.

Stephen - a subject for the Knowledge Base ?

Hope this helps,

Chris

[Peter Silcock]

Yes Chris is correct but don't assume the public liability section of your house insurance will apply- the wording has to be very specific like the NFU policy to cover you at organized events and in public places. Even with the NFU type wording if Insurers get a whiff of some sort of commercial activity involved you might be in trouble in the event of a claim. Joining a club with PL cover thrown in is really the best solution - at £20 ish its worth it for peace of mind.

[Stephen White]

Chris, thanks. We had to produce a risk assessment (inevitably) for Tankmod, which led to producing a set of guidelines for safe running in public. Insurance is clearly an important issue. I'll tidy up the draft guidelines in a week or so and put together a Knowledge Base Topic on Running Armortek Models in Public. With the collective expertise on this forum, we should be able to refine it into something useful and practical.

Regards

Stephen

[dennypatterson]

If you could see the forms that I have to fill in Yeovilton, its mainly for M.O.D. sites , you even have to have a fire extinguisher!!!!!! Denny.

[chris fry]

I think the fire extinguisher is because they have seen your tank driving denny!!!.

[Mark Heaps]

Edit Stephen I have just checked the NFU policy and I see the policy extends to include liability arising out of "private pursuits" and there are no relevant exclusions so there is cover. Unusual wording that. It obviously is worth people checking their various insurances so that they are not duplicating cover unnecessarily.

Hi Peter , if that is with NFU Mutual ( http://www.nfumutual.co.uk ), liability caused by "private pusuits" does indeed seem to be covered however column 2 of page 75 of the pdf states that liability caused by owning or using any MOTORISED VEHICLE is not insured. A lawyer fighting the claim could possibly argue an Armortek model falls into this definition.

If someone is unsure whether they are already covered, I would suggest they ask their insurance provider for confirmation in writing and then file away the answer should it ever be needed. If the general Terms & Conditions of the policy are ever changed by the provider, ask for re-confirmation that the risk is still covered.

I personally would also be adverse to relying on PL cover provided as membership of a club. The club itself very likely does not the funds available to settle any claims but instead has a group policy with an insurance firm. If the club has not been paying its premiums for whatever reason, the club and all its members have no cover.

[Peter Silcock]

Mark - there are legal definitions of a motorized vehicle as far as insurance is concerned and an electric model will not fall within that definition but as you say its definitely worth double checking with your insurance provider. I certainly would not trust your average call centre insurance bod to give you the correct answer. Re club insurance your concerns are valid but at £20 you are not taking much of a gamble.(I don't really think that club officers know the potential liabilities attaching to them in their positions) Fortunately whilst injury and death caused by rc aircraft are not unknown such problems must be very rare with tanks but don't take the risk- witness the exploding tank model in Germany a while back the consequences of which could have been awful.

[Stephen White]

I got my local NFU Mutual office specifically to check with the underwriters that "remote control model tanks" are covered for public liability and they have also seen the Armortek website.

I wonder whether covering the same risk with two policies might cause a problem. I thought I'd recalled seeing that you have to declare to your insurers if the risk is spread. It might apply therefore if you have both household insurance and a club policy such as the UKTC one.

I'll cover the consolidated wisdom from this thread in a KB topic on running models in public, in due course.

Stephen

[Peter Silcock]

Stephen yep with the wording of your NFU policy there is no way Insurers could avoid a claim so you would be safe no matter what they tried to do initially. You are correct that having duplicated insurance can be a nightmare - I had to handle many cases where Insurers got into a total wobbler as they argued over who should handle the claim and how the costs should be apportioned.