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track grousers

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:26 am
by nick pannell
Hi all.
Can I ask has anyone tried to make or fit the track grousers that you can see sticking out of the side of the tracks on some WW1 images?

I am guessing they are grousers, but maybe they are the brackets for attaching the chains for the un-ditching beam?? Has anyone got any good / clear images as we are a bit short of MKIV tanks in New Zealand!! :lol:
Nick

Re: track grousers

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:56 am
by Daniel Scholefield
Don't think anyone has tried to make/cast the track spuds yet, my guess is that making them out of a tough enough material to take the abuse of being on the tracks precludes it. Historically from what I have been reading (and I am sure Chris will have the definitive words on this) the spuds were largely useless and were replaced with the anti-ditching beam so apart from the practical difficulties adding them would be unnecessary.

Re: track grousers

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:50 am
by Chris Hall
Nick -

Firstly, welcome to the Mark IV forum area ! We're an enthusiastic bunch here, especially when it comes to ways to actually get the tracks on ..... :wink:

Daniel (bless 'im) has pointed the finger at me to respond. I'm passionate about the history of the tanks in WW1, but I'll never claim to be an engineer, or even a good modeller. So please read my views in that light.

This subject, along with fascines, has been a focus of mine of late, so I suppose I'd better pass on my thoughts now that the subject has been raised !

'Grousers' is probably a more modern term - back in WW1 they were called 'Spuds'. Their aim, of course, was to give the tank extra traction in the mud. They started off as wooden torpedoes flapping around on chains, and were used by the Mark II's at Arras in mid-1917. They clearly didn't work but, even so, the same design was resurrected after the Armistice for the Medium B's and C's.

For the Mark IV's they came up with a new design, that bolted directly to the track plates (I've seen various references to one per 4, 6 or 8 ). There's a nice picture and description on pages 48/49 of the 'Haynes Guide' (http://www.amazon.com/Great-War-Tank-19 ... ank+haynes) which is a book worth getting for a good overview of the Mark IV.

The problems were manifest:

[*] they were a pig to put on - there are accounts of tank crews giving up half way through and burying the unused spuds, which led to some pretty irregular layouts;
[*] they could only be put on immediately before action (ie. when the crews were more urgently engaged on fuelling, oiling, greasing, loading ammo ..... ) as they couldn't be used on paved roads;
[*] they didn't help at all in the quagmire that was 3rd Ypres, and were unnecessary in the better, firmer going at Cambrai (at least until the rain and snow came down);
[*] when stored in the 'Spud Box' (at the rear of the roof) they were estimated to add around 2 tons to the all-up weight of the tank, causing additional problems in trench-crossing, fuel consumption, ground pressure etc.

So, all-in-all, the unditching beam was a better solution, although not without its difficulties. The best solution, of course, was to only use tanks on appropriately good ground, which still holds good today. That's probably why the spuds were seldom seen after Cambrai, and never seem to have been fitted to Mark V's.

But they were a feature of the Mark IV's, so we should have a go at modelling them for completeness .....

I've yet to actually see one 'in the flesh' (I'll have to speak nicely to the Archivists at Bovington !) but, looking at original pictures, the plate sticking out of the side seems to cover about 2 track plate widths - the one it's bolted to, and half of each one either side. They also had a raised bar running along at 90 degrees to the track plate, and for most of its width, clearly to give additional traction. One can immediately see how this would flatten under the tank's weight on anything but soft going, and probably rip a tarmaced road to shreds. I can't imagine that Bovington would have been too happy about it at Armortek Day !

So, with regret, it doesn't seem possible or practical to fit spuds to our models, although I'll bow to any engineer who can cut and weld them to be strong enough. A few along the top 'for show' might be the best we could achieve. It's a shame, as they were prominent in most pictures of Cambrai tanks (I'll sort out some references and links later).

So, the best bet might be to cast them in white metal to put them in the spud box. This is something I'm minded to have a go at over the winter. If I can examine and measure a real one, and model a replica in 1/6th, I've got a friend with a casting machine who could possibly run them off.

Sorry for the monologue - frequent visitors to this part of the Armortek Empire know that that's what I do ! I'd welcome other opinions, especially from more proficient builders than me .....

Fascines, though, should be a much easier topic to tackle, and are even more iconic. But that's for another day ......... :)

All the best,

Chris

Re: track grousers

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:28 pm
by Francis Samish
A real spud does I think exist - its in one of the 'cabinets of curiousities' at Bovingdon, in the WW1 hall if memory serves me right. I took a not very good picture of it whilst I was starting out on the legwork for my own Mk IV build. I think if you asked nicely I'm sure the museum would allow you to examine it out of the box. Hope this helps, rather than deepens the mystery....

Re: track grousers

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:16 pm
by nick pannell
Hi Chris.
thank you for all the info on the SPUDS, It looks like the Spuds where a bit of a let down in the muddy conditions they where made for.
from the photo it looks like they where pressed steel riveted together and hooked on and bolted in a clamping way on the track plate. I would be very interested in any spud castings you may come up with as I can get them cast here in steel.
I also will invest in that book you recommend I only have the small new vanguard books at the moment.
It has taken a long time for the model to get here but it looks well worth the wait I have chassis no 003.
Kind regards.
Nick. :D

Re: track grousers

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:17 pm
by Steve Stuart
Here are a couple of photos I took at the First World War Museum in Peronne (Chris provided the inspiration to make the place one to visit on a trip last summer).
Spud
Spud
Spud
Spud
Whilst they show not much detail of the Spud itself, the way they locate onto the track is clear and their relative size to the track plates is shown.
Perhaps the shape of the half moon on the end projecting out from the track plate made the crew think to name them 'Spuds'?
Can I also extend a welcome to our new Band of Brigands!
Steve

A real track spud !

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:23 pm
by Chris Hall
I'm resurrecting this thread to keep the conversation focussed.

With massive thanks to the staff at the Bovington Archives (especially Katie Thompson), I actually got to study a genuine spud a couple of days ago. Here are couple of pictures:

Image
Image

And there are more at http://s1150.photobucket.com/user/woodl ... ack%20Spud (so as not to clutter up the Forum). I took loads of measurements, which I now have to work out and send to my CAD guru ! Then I can post up some proper dimensions.

It's pretty obvious how it fits to the track plates, overlapping each side with a couple of bolts to tighten. Having read all the accounts of what a pig the job was, at first sight I couldn't see the problem. And then I picked it up ... a heavy, awkward lump of cast iron. Probably easy enough to bolt together when clean and new, but when it's been used a few times, bent in action and caked with mud .... a nightmare. And it would have been done just before going into action, in the dark when nerves are stretched to breaking. And you could only do half of them before you'd have to move the tank a length to do the other half ! So my heart goes out to those early tankies, and I fully understand why surviving pictures and films show irregular fittings.

I really think I can get these cast up, given time. But the best form I can think of is white metal. I can't think of any metal that, when made to scale, would be strong enough to take the weight of our models. Therefore, unless anyone has a better idea, I think these would only be for show - full length for the top plates, and the outer shoes only for the plates on the ground. Of course, they'll look great stacked up in the Spud Box !

I'll keep you informed of progress. But I'm still buzzing about holding an actual piece of history, almost 100 years old, in my hands. In the UK, we are truly blessed to have Bovington.

All the best,

Chris