Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Forum for discussion relating to the British MK IV Tank
User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Fitting m/g LED's to Liesel

Post by Chris Hall »

The Mk. IV 'gun pack' came out after I'd finished Liesel and, despite the excellent work on developing it by Steve and John, I don't really fancy disassembling her - and, anyway, the lewis gun drums don't move smoothly enough :oops:.

However, Channels 7&8 on the sound pack are firing machine guns - ideal for a Female, as that's all she's packing ! So, my question is: although the guns won't move around, can LED's be put down the barrels to flash when the m/g sound is activated ?

If anyone can advise me on the wiring, and where to find the necessary bits, I'd be very grateful (as I know absolutely nothing about such things).

Thanks, in hope,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Re: Liesel - reordering the electricals

Post by Chris Hall »

Elapsed time: months ! (I've stopped counting the hours ....... )

Those of you who were at Tankfest, or have watched Stephen's excellent videos, will have seen Liesel (along with her compatriots Bloodstone and Lightning III) performing effortlessly over that 'hill'. I was very proud of being part of that, and all the complementary comments. But now it's back to tinkering - after all, they're never really finished, are they ?

I've been aware for some time that the electricals needed sorting out, mainly to fit the new 'wiggly gun pack'. The 'standard fit' uses an upright plate between the motors, anchored to the floor and the rear bulkhead, which holds the Power Pack and the Speed Control pack. While this works well, it does make it extremely difficult to get to the Power Pack to plug in any new components.

So the first job was to strip it all out (fortunately the Mark IV's are spacious inside, which makes this very easy) and put bolts into the resulting holes where the upright plate fitted. Then I decided to make a battery box and uprights to hold the packs out of MDF. My original idea was to lay the batteries flat, as everyone else does. But that's not necessary in a Mark IV, as they're so high and don't have turrets ! So, instead, I retained my original battery box (made out of angle iron) and just made a base with two uprights for the four packs (Power, Speed Control, Sound and Auxiliary / Guns). And this is the result:

Image

(Looking forward, with the speakers in the cab)

Image

(Looking back, where the motors are)

This arrangement has turned out to be incredibly neat, and allows easy access to all the packs. Indeed, by disconnecting the leads from the motors and taking out the batteries the whole assembly can be lifted out of the tank ! Of course, that won't be so easy when all those servos are connected to the guns .... the on/off switch is now reached from the double doors under the sponson rather than the rear bulkhead door (on a Male, it should be accessible through the large door at the back of the sponson). However, like everyone else, I intend to fit a relay and large on/off switch under the roof turret hatch - when I can get professional help ! My general numptyness continues ... :wink:

So that's the first main change. My next post will deal with the Female sponsons, which also need a bit of work.

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

User avatar
Adrian Harris
Posts: 4907
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Berkshire (UK)
Has liked: 1182 times
Been liked: 1378 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Adrian Harris »

Good to see Liesel getting some workshop time :D

One thing I would say is that you need to get the top off the Power Module if you ever blow a fuse, so I would ensure you can extract that particular module easily, in case you ever need to replace a fuse under fire.

Adrian.
Contact me at sales@armortekaddict.uk for details of my smoker fan control module

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Liesel - working on the Female sponsons (1)

Post by Chris Hall »

Regretfully I only know of one other Mark IV owner intending to build a Female (Phil Castle, with model no. 36). This is a shame as, historically, the Females outnumbered the Males by 596 to 421 (with a further 205 built as Supply Tenders or other specialist tanks). And, more practically, the Females are easier to get in and out of cars, and can get through standard width door frames ! It's obviously a 'big gun' thing ..... :shock: :wink: . So this post may be of limited interest, but I hope you get something out of it.

I realised as soon as I built the original sponsons (over a year ago now !) that there was a problem. The kit provides brass bushes to fit top and bottom of the Lewis Gun drums and into the top and bottom sponson plates. But these are a very tight fit, and make it difficult to achieve the warning in the instructions (obviously with the gun pack in mind) to make the guns swing freely. The answer was obvious - to replace the bushes with bearings. But it's taken me some time to work out how, and then I needed some help with tools that I don't have (little things like a lathe and a milling machine). And that's where Steve Stuart rode in on his white charger :D .

My original idea was to fit bearings that were only slightly smaller than the sponson plates. This would have meant drilling out the existing holes, but without drilling all the way through. Steve advised that it would be better to fit smaller bearings that were the same size as the existing hole (I didn't know you could get bearings that small !). The correct bearings are 625-2RS, obtainable from Simply Bearings http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.html. However, these are not deep enough, so Steve ran up a plastic washer to raise the bearings to just above the plate level. This is the result:

Image

And then the pegs either end of the Lewis Gun drums needed to be turned down to 5mm to fit inside the bearings:

Image

(original on the left)

This results in a very thin peg ! But it doesn't bear any weight, and it's protected by the sponson plates, so I can't see it snapping off. And I trust the quality of the aluminium that Mark uses !

And, once assembled, it's all worth it. The drums now swing effortlessly - almost frictionless. So, unless I gum it all up with paint :oops: this should be the answer to my original problem.

It does mean, though, new sponsons for Liesel. So, in the true spirit of the Beutepanzers, Liesel (no 50) will carry the sponsons from no. 30, and Flaming Fire II (my next build, no. 30) will carry the sponsons from no. 35, via a swap with Daniel Scholefield !

So that's the engineering change sorted. The next change to the Female sponsons concerns historical accuracy.

All the best,

Chris
(with grateful thanks to Steve Stuart - I'm good with ideas, but lousy at implementing them :wink: )
Last edited by Chris Hall on Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Chris Hall »

Adrian Harris wrote: ....so I would ensure you can extract that particular module easily, in case you ever need to replace a fuse under fire.
Adrian -

Access to replace a fuse - relatively easy, in the comfort of the workshop (and if I knew what I was doing !). "Under fire" (or in a muddy field in the rain) - much less likely :oops:. But still a lot easier than when the Power Pack was at the back of the tank between the motors ......

Thanks for the warning, though !

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Liesel - working on the Female sponsons (2)

Post by Chris Hall »

Like I said, this is for the historical accuracy builders amongst us ....

Here's a picture of the Female sponsons, as supplied in the kit:

Image

ie. the plates are a mirror image of each other. However, I've only recently become aware that the pattern of the periscope and pistol ports is incorrect (sorry, Mark :oops:). The left hand plate is fine. However, the right hand plate should have the ports running diagonally from top right to bottom left, like this:

Image

(the incorrect ports have been crossed out in red)

Once I had noticed this, I laboriously trawled through all my books and pictures. It was especially useful to find some pictures of the same tank from both sides, like the Ashford Tank, the Reading Tank (thanks to Adrian Harris for this one), D51 Deborah, Liesel and Lotte (see below). Not only is this consistent, but it's always the right-hand plate as you're looking at it. Therefore the sponsons are not 'handed' - they were obviously mass-produced to a single pattern. Incidentally, this is also in evidence on the Mark V** at Bovington, so the pattern is consistent throughout the life of the Female sponson. I'm confident enough in my research to declare this as a Law (unless, of course, you know differently !). I've got no idea why this difference exists, by the way ........

This is a relatively easy thing to correct - if you've got access to a milling machine (thanks again, Steve !). The ports are all on the same level, so you just have to measure across, mark up the new ports, and then drill through (NB. the faint lines down the centre of each side are to allow for the straps representing the folding mechanism, which I've mentioned before). There's probably a proper way of filling in the wrong ports using braise, but I'm going to do it the numpty way by gluing a small plate behind each one and then filling with Milliput. A layer of paint covers a multitude of sins ..... :lol:

BUT (and there's always a 'but' with the Mark IV tanks !), there is a slight difference between build, which may be a difference in factory assembly methods (which I'll look into one rainy day). Have a look at these two pictures:

Image

Liesel - a Coventry build

Image

Lotte, ex-Flaming Fire II - a Metropolitan build.

Spotted it ? The pistol port at the bottom pivots on different sides ! A very, very minor point, but important if you've got actual photographic evidence for your build (as I have). If not, unless I'm right about the factory assembly thing, you can go with whatever you fancy and only a complete geek :oops: could question you about it.

And now the sun has come out (at last), so I might get Liesel out for a run around the garden, and stop boring you all.

All the best,

Chris
(with thanks again to Steve Stuart for the engineering solution)
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Liesel - working on the Female sponsons (3)

Post by Chris Hall »

Still working on the Female sponsons - every time I look at my picture collection, I find more things to do !

The WW1 tanks were too wide to be transported on the existing railway network. With Marks I to III this meant that the sponsons needed to be unbolted, transported separately, and then refitted at the destination. An awful job by all accounts, especially given that the sponsons gave the whole tank some structural rigidity so, when they were taken off, the bolt holes went out of alignment .....

For the Mark IV, a system was invented whereby the sponsons could be partially unbolted, and then swung inboard on pivots. This apparently made the job easier, although still a royal pain. I haven't yet studied how this affects the Male sponsons, but I have worked it out for the Females.

Essentially, the Female sponsons were unbolted down the centre line, and then swung in from the centre. This meant that the sponsons were made in two sections, with a plate down the centre line riveted on one side, and bolted on the other. This can be seen on the survivors (Ashford, Lincoln, and Bovington's Mark V**). So there's my pattern - now to recreate it.

My caveat is, though, that this is purely for show ! I'm representing the outside only - the idea of actually making this work is way above my competence (although not, I suspect, some of the obvious Armortek stars, who I'm simply in awe of. You know who you are).

All that is required is a 1 inch wide strip of metal (I've used aluminium), slightly shorter than the depth of the sponson (to allow for the swing in). On one side this can use the existing 7 holes, so you just need to drill through and rivet. But the other side only has 5 holes - the top, bottom and centre holes are OK, but you'll need to drill two extra holes equidistant between the centre and the edge. These 5 holes then require hex heads (M3 x 6mm) NOT rivets. The result is:

Image

(original Armortek sponson at top, then my amendments, including the revised periscope and pistol port layout mentioned before)

You'll note that this now makes the sponsons handed. I've checked through all my picture stocks, and believe that the edge with the 7 rivets is always towards the front of the tank, suggesting that the rear section was swung in first. I've only found 3 exceptions to this rule, all of which I think are explainable:

1. Lotte the Beutepanzer (ex-F30 Flaming Fire). The left-hand sponson has the rivets to the rear, differently to the right-hand sponson. There are clear signs of damage around the sponson, with several patches welded on around it. I suspect that the Germans simply sourced a sponson from another captured tank, either not realising that they were handed or not having the stock to care !

2. Presentation tank to Hitchen. This, unusually for a post-War presentation, was clearly a 'fighting' tank, as it has the unditching rails and the mid-1918 red / white stripes. Again, I suspect it was damaged in combat and any old sponson was put on as it was never to be used in service again.

3. The Cologne Mark V Hermaphrodites. There's a story to be told about these ... one day. I've no idea why L Battalion did it, but I guess they just swapped the sponsons round because they could. There's no consistency between which side was Male and which Female.

I think I've done the history side to death, and probably bored you all rigid in the process ! You'll be relieved to hear that I can only think of one more stage with these sponsons before they get painted, and that concerns the top and bottom plates, which need angled straps for the folding mechanism, and a row of rivets around the outside of the top plate. This picture of L52 Lyric is the best I can find ....

Image

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

Oliver Brüninghaus
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:59 pm
Has liked: 562 times
Been liked: 409 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus »

Hi Chris

I like your idea oft the „Tech-Rack“.
A very comfortable way to work at the electronics outside the tank.
Did you use some high power connections between the motors and one Sub-D connector for the several servos? That will be a smart way to drive different Models with one TechRack® including the main electronic modules and the power pack.


regards
Oliver
It's Grim Up North

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Chris Hall »

Oliver -

It all just came together - I can't claim any particular scientific breakthrough ! And, as for your technical questions, they're all way beyond me .... I only know enough to follow Mark's instructions. I've yet to actually fit all those servos :oops: - I'll report back when I do !

How's your Beutepanzer coming along ? Chosen a 'Male model' yet ?

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

Oliver Brüninghaus
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:59 pm
Has liked: 562 times
Been liked: 409 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus »

Hello Chris,

The Beutetank has very slow progresses. I enjoy every minute but the building minutes are rare and the ideas for details compelling.
I haven’t make a decision if it will be the male version.
If I will get the time, I will post a separate build blog.

Regards
Oliver
It's Grim Up North

Steve Stuart
Posts: 753
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: Oxford
Has liked: 239 times
Been liked: 136 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Steve Stuart »

Weston super Mare or out and about. At the Helicopter Museum
Bridging
Bridging
Climbing
Climbing
Firing
Firing
Bleeding
Bleeding
No mechanical problems, just sticking plaster needed for Denny.

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Chris Hall »

Steve -

Thanks for that ! I was hoping those pictures of Liesel would look good - and they do. Great camera work. And thanks to Marc for the pallets (which were looking a bit chewed up by the end of the day :oops:) and for organising the day. And Denny, of course, for his constant smile and positive attitude :wink:.

Appreciatively,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

Steve Stuart
Posts: 753
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: Oxford
Has liked: 239 times
Been liked: 136 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Steve Stuart »

I have been asked to post a couple of these pictures
G0013449.JPG
G0013459.aJPG.jpg
A different perspective!

User avatar
Chris Hall
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:34 pm
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
Has liked: 479 times
Been liked: 631 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Chris Hall »

The pilot asked us to stop operating while he was flying, as he thought our signals would conflict with his :roll:. But he did send through some great pictures with an unusual perspective .....
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
M3 Lee (25 Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Universal Carrier (2/Wiltshires, Italy 1944)
Panther (Deserter, 145 RAC, Italy 1944)
Centurion Mk 3 (8KRIH, Korea 1950/51)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & limber (45RA, Korea 1951)

Steve Stuart
Posts: 753
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: Oxford
Has liked: 239 times
Been liked: 136 times

Re: Mk. IV No. 50 - Beutepanzer Female (Liesel)

Post by Steve Stuart »

If you follow this link:

There are some overhead shots of Tanks and People!
Steve

Post Reply