Armortek

Redoing my supsension I noticed that my road wheels aren't symetrical opposit each other. I browsed the entire Panther forum to find pictures and for what I have seen in most cases they seem to be in line. This puzzles me because on both sides the angle of the suspension arms are the same. I always had to tighten the right track much more than the left. I even had to remove one track link to get sufficient tension. This is better now but I still have to tighten the right side far more than the left. What am I missing here? The last road wheel on the left side is a clearly overlapping the idler. On the right side this isn't the case. Difference is about a centimeter. Is that about correct?

Hi Marcel,

Well spotted!
Yes on real Panthers there was a difference between RS and LS, the LS was about 60mm more to the rear (60mm makes 10mm in 1:6th).
Note the bigger gap between the sprocket and the first set of wheels at the LS.
The fact that the last sets of LS wheels overlap the idler can be caused by different track tension but never the difference in gap at the sprockets.

This I have not seen mentioned in any text in books but is well seen in photos and drawings (Panzer Tracts is a good example).
This was an outfit from the very beginning and was done on all Ausf from D and A to G.

Kind regards
Kent

Questions like Marcels, and the answer given by Kent, always interest me greatly.

These are the little things that get missed amongst the more popular stuff such as the drive for more detail/realism.

I've made a mental note of that little fact Kent, as stuff like this can be very helpful, especially during a build.

Marcel/Kent,
Looking at my Panther I was always puzzled by why the left and right idler has different tension locations with the same number of track links. Thanks for asking this question Marcel, and thanks for anwering Kent.
Kind regards,
Bob

Thanks Kent for this clear answer. What prize have I won?

But seriously now. In my current setup it looks that I have to do with one track link less on the RS. Will that cause problems since on the RS more revolutions will be made. It could cause the tank to tend to go slightly left allthough this can be corrected on the transmitter.

Hi Guys,
Correct me if I am wrong please.

For most of tanks with torsion bar suspension, LHS wheels are never symmetrical to RHS ones because the offset of the both sides' torsion bars. Even today's MBTs are still so.

Maybe the Tiger 1 is the only exception. Although her both sides' torsion bars are asymmetrical , the opposite direction of the LHS sway arms to the RHS ones made both side wheels are symmetrical.



But the opposed direction of sway arms have had many disadvantages, and was abandoned after the end of WW2.

Lerh Chang [/img]

Hi all

Because the suspension arms point to the rear on the right, and to the front on the left, the relative position of the wheels varies according to the ride height. At one height they will be the exactly the same. If the ride height is higher, the right side will be further forward. If the ride height is lower, the left side is further forward. This is simple geometry.

The variation in number of links that each track loop requires depends upon track stretch, not suspension geometry. The amount of stretch can vary significantly from one link to another.

Mark

Kent Wiik wrote:Hi Marcel,
Well spotted!
Yes on real Panthers there was a difference between RS and LS, the LS was about 60mm more to the rear (60mm makes 10mm in 1:6th).
Note the bigger gap between the sprocket and the first set of wheels at the LS.

Armortek wrote:Because the suspension arms point to the rear on the right, and to the front on the left, the relative position of the wheels varies according to the ride height. At one height they will be the exactly the same. If the ride height is higher, the right side will be further forward. If the ride height is lower, the left side is further forward. This is simple geometry.

I'm interested to see Kent's reply as this is what I first thought (The ride height is critical) and all my diagrams show the same distance between the sprocket and first wheel on either side. Not one of my books mentions any difference so I'd like to know where Kent got his info from. As we know Kent is never wrong

Thanks Antony

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply. Concerning your explanation regarding track links/lenght: does that mean that it is possible to have f.i. 84 links on th RS and 85on the LS without any harm done?

Hi Ant,

Mark is absolute right about the backward/forward pointing swing arms combined with the weight is the cause why the wheels don’t line up symmetrical opposite each other as Marcel asked about.
Can’t see that my answer contradict to that as I stated that they don’t lined up on the real Panthers because they didn’t or do you have evidence for otherwise?

As I wrote this is evident seen in ww2 photos for example Panzer Tracts or Motor Buch Verlag, books I assume you have.
Please look at this photos of the brand new Ausf A Fgst 232983 outside the MAN plant Standing fully equipped (probably with her fully combat load of 45.5 ton) on level ground just about to be sent to 2SSPzD Das Reich in spring 1944.
The difference in wheel position are obvious.







Kind regards
Kent

Marcel de Groene wrote:Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply. Concerning your explanation regarding track links/lenght: does that mean that it is possible to have f.i. 84 links on th RS and 85on the LS without any harm done?

Hi Marcel

I have been told by friends driving tanks as their occupation that it is not that unusual to have different numbers of links/side ( we learn something new every day and nice it is).
Keep in mind it is the number of links passing the sprocket that gives the tank speed not the number of links available.

Have a nice weekend
Kent

Hi Kent,

My weekend is fine now. Thanks for your feedback, very much appreciated(all feedback that is ofcourse). Learned much in a few days.

Hi Kent,

From the photo's above I can see where you're coming from. I too have searched my photo library but to get 2 photo's of each side at the same angle and distance away will be hard to do.
On all the diagrams or blue prints you have do any show this 60mm difference On all the line drawings I've got they are identical but unless the author knew of a difference they would have mirror imaged their first drawing and add the different tools etc.
Knowing the Germans and their engineering you would have thought the wheels would be spot on.

Thanks Ant

Hi Ant,

Please stop now for your own sake and admit Kent has a point here.

As I said above this can be seen in drawing as well but never mentioned in any text.
Please look in Panzer Tracts 5-2 drawings on page 5-86 made by the Britt’s Jentz and Doyle whom I regard highly (not always correct but in this case they are).
Take the measure from centre last wheel/centre idler and find there is a difference of about 2mm in the 1:35 drawing (that makes about 70mm in 1:1).

I hate to publish their drawings here (copyright issue) just to make you understand so I urge you to check this out yourself in your own book.

The Armortek model is made correctly and if you have another opinion please tell that to Mark and Gill yourself.

Kind regards
Kent

Kent,

Thanks for the advice but I'll stop when I decide to. I like seeing things for myself and making my own mind up. I for one don't believe everything you say until I've checked out if myself. It's a pity you weren't born seventy years ago as you could have told the German's the error of their ways. Hey ho..................said Antony Rowley.