Goliath Thread -- Who wants one?

[Chris Hall]

There's another captive Goliath in the Reserve Collection at the REME Museum near Chippenham, Wiltshire, UK:

(sorry - it's pretty dark in there, and it was directly under a leak in the roof !)

I would have thought that, with the notable exception of those Armortekkers who have already replied the likely market would be WW2 Re-enactors and Museums. Superfically it resembles a WW1 British Tank (ie. an oblong box with tracks around each side), so Armortek have some experience to draw on. The problem as I see it is the tracks - large heavy lumps of metal. And then ....... what does it do ? It doesn't have a turret, a main gun, a machine gun, a smoker ...... it just moves. So pretty dull to play with and, given its mono-colour and lack of markings, pretty dull to look at.

As Stephen White says, it'll need to be control line rather than r/c to be an accurate representation (creating a trip hazard ), which will be new ground for Armortek.

An interesting idea but, somehow, I think there are too many changes from Armortek's USP to make it a flyer. A debate about the next three 1/6 models would be much more enjoyable !

All the best, and stay well,

Chris

[Derek Attree]

Hi Guys
Not for me and I echo what Chris has said I think its pretty pointless.

Regards

Derek

[Tim Page]

Hi all, I put the full sized Goliath as a request on my on my survey. Dont know if anyone else added it but for me it would be a great addition to the Armortek range.
Firstly it is a 1:1 scale model which would be a first for them and secondly, i am a WW2 re-enactor who would love to have one of these to run around at shows. I think some owners would be interested in owning even a replica of a full sized WW2 German tracked vehicle.

It probably wont generate enough interest for Amortek to actually make it but I am happy that they have considered it seriously enough to be discussed here. Fingers crossed that there will be enough interest to produce this.
Many thanks Armortek.

Cheers
Tim

[Jack Hrovatin]

I wish to apologize to all I offended with my comments on this vehicle. Apparently I am being seen as being overly whiney in an unfriendly and Un spirited way concerning my desires to see a cast Hull Sherman tank. I was merely startled by the attention given to the Goliath in the form of a separate thread posting by the company asking if we wanted one, yet that offer not given to a Cast Hull Sherman.
I am very sorry if I annoy, or seem overly peevish to anyone!!!!!

[John Clarke]

I must admit I don't believe Goliath would be a good model for an Armortek build.
To me, it's an accessory, a rudimentary anti tank weapon for desperate times. Overtaken by the Bazooka and Panzerfaust.

If you were to argue the merits of a rubbish weapon you should add in the Panjandrum.

Putting an Argument forward to discuss relevant future models, I've no problem (famo famo famo) unless it's the A38 Valient.

I would add, another metal tank manufacturer started building full size models. Steam cars no less , where are they now.........
.... Exactly my point

[Tim Page]

I have also been surprised that it has received this much traction Jack.
Don't despair tho about your cast hull m4A1 Sherman and remember the Famo.

This was a beast that was muttered for a good number of years and the reply from Armortek at that time was always a firm NO.
However, persistence paid off and the Famo was made and loved by many.

I do agree though that it would be very costly to produce the complete cast hull for a Sherman but who knows what might be possible in a few years time.

Cheers
Tim

[Jack Hrovatin]

Tim,
Yes.....never say never. As a man who has passion for this hobby, and the history that it brings to the forefront....I respect your interest in this vehicle. Perhaps an aftermarket plow to be fitted to its front end would permit me another Snowplow for my very long driveway. So, on second thought, I’ll support your choice.

Cheers,
Jack

[Graham P Hough]

No thanks. Looks to a bit boring? There are many other models higher up my list. Just saying!

[Robert Reid]

I do agree though that it would be very costly to produce the complete cast hull for a Sherman but who knows what might be possible in a few years time.

Cheers
Tim

I'd love to see everything made! The more 1/6th scale kits the better.

But having quite a bit of experience with casting (including getting parts done in the UK)... costs are astronomical. Patterns for most items start at about 25,000 pounds. For simple patterns. The complex patterns run 100,000 - 150,000 pounds. That's before the first casting is made. That's just the first patterns to shape the sand.

Then you have about a 10 percent scrap rate if the casting is complex at all. Thin castings are the worst. Then machining of the casting.

One of the great and interesting new technologies is 3d printing of sand cores. That has reduced costs some. But involves large programming costs and then printing each core. And after the core is used, you destroy it. So any 'reasonably' large casting costs from 1000 - 5,000 pounds. Before any machining is done. The closest thing I can think of to a cast Sherman Hull would be some of the water pump castings we have made. In runs of 20 - 50, they are about 800 pounds ($1,000 +-) each before any machining is done. Small lot stuff is spendy!

Plus we look at lead times of 12 months. Because small lot casting places are really backed up! And for automotive stuff, we can't even get the phone answered when it's in the "Formula 1" cycle. In other words... this year's stuff is being made for the F1 teams.

I think a cast-hull Sherman is one of the coolest things out there. But would be a huge investment.

As for the Goliath... a modern interpretation is sheet aluminum and machining. But I also agree there are cool things out there that can be just as much (or more) fun than a rolling box of "Der Kaboom!" But I'd still like one. I just think they are a fascinating bit of Vunder-Veapons folly that is so representative of the Germans ill-fated concept that they could technology themselves out of utter defeat. When the reality was that "Quantity had a Quality all of its own." (Attributed to Stalin, but not likely him... he wasn't a deep thinker.)

That said, given the choice between any Land Rover and a Goliath... I'd take two Land Rovers and three on Sundays! But I still think a Goliath would be wicked cool!

Cheers,

RPR

[Gerhard Michel]

Well, I owned a full metal 1/6 scale Goliath for a short time. It could reside in a shoebox! After some months I sold it again, unused. Unfortunately I made no pics........

[Jerry Carducci]

I do agree though that it would be very costly to produce the complete cast hull for a Sherman but who knows what might be possible in a few years time.

Cheers
Tim

I'd love to see everything made! The more 1/6th scale kits the better.

But having quite a bit of experience with casting (including getting parts done in the UK)... costs are astronomical. Patterns for most items start at about 25,000 pounds. For simple patterns. The complex patterns run 100,000 - 150,000 pounds. That's before the first casting is made. That's just the first patterns to shape the sand.

Then you have about a 10 percent scrap rate if the casting is complex at all. Thin castings are the worst. Then machining of the casting.

One of the great and interesting new technologies is 3d printing of sand cores. That has reduced costs some. But involves large programming costs and then printing each core. And after the core is used, you destroy it. So any 'reasonably' large casting costs from 1000 - 5,000 pounds. Before any machining is done. The closest thing I can think of to a cast Sherman Hull would be some of the water pump castings we have made. In runs of 20 - 50, they are about 800 pounds ($1,000 +-) each before any machining is done. Small lot stuff is spendy!

Plus we look at lead times of 12 months. Because small lot casting places are really backed up! And for automotive stuff, we can't even get the phone answered when it's in the "Formula 1" cycle. In other words... this year's stuff is being made for the F1 teams.

I think a cast-hull Sherman is one of the coolest things out there. But would be a huge investment.

As for the Goliath... a modern interpretation is sheet aluminum and machining. But I also agree there are cool things out there that can be just as much (or more) fun than a rolling box of "Der Kaboom!" But I'd still like one. I just think they are a fascinating bit of Vunder-Veapons folly that is so representative of the Germans ill-fated concept that they could technology themselves out of utter defeat. When the reality was that "Quantity had a Quality all of its own." (Attributed to Stalin, but not likely him... he wasn't a deep thinker.)

That said, given the choice between any Land Rover and a Goliath... I'd take two Land Rovers and three on Sundays! But I still think a Goliath would be wicked cool!

Cheers,

RPR

The difficulty in locating foundries who were willing even considering onesie, twosie type jobs caused me to learn how to do it myself. I did cast a
1/10 scale late type M4A1 hull and a Panther G hull and even with assistant(s) moving the flasks required was a sweaty chore. I limit myself to small parts these days.

In the past when I've shown my models and it gets out that I've done a number of my own castings I get even more inquires in the vein of 'could you cast...?' - no one ever really got how much work making a pattern, core box or match plate is. It's why I rarely offer to cast anything for anyone...

But still opening a flask is the next best thing to Christmas morning...

When I hear 1/6 scale cast Sherman hull I see a ceramic shell molding process in the works..

Jerry

[Jack Hrovatin]

Jerry,
You just got me thinking about how great it would be....to be opening that present....a 1/6 scale beautiful Cast Hull Sherman M4A1. I can always dream....thank you for just the thought of it!

Jack

[Gerhard Michel]

In another forum a comrade presented a self casted 1/6 scale Leopard I hull an turret in stainless steel ( ) with casted pivot arms, 'living' track links and so on. Some times later this model was offered for 50.000 €..........

[Tim Page]

Hi Gerhard, I remember seeing that Leopard 1 at Munster a few years ago.
I took LOTS of pix of it.

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It was incredible to see, but dont think I'd shell out 50,000 Euro for it.

Tim

[Jan_Donadoni]

a 1 : 1 Goliath?
Could also be equipped with a gasoline engine, like to original one.
To me it's a GREEN FOR GO!
Would take it for sure.