Dunkelgelb - what colour (color)?

[Per Sonnervik]

Hi Stephen,

Well, nailing the correct German WWII colours will give you plenty of interesting work, many have tried and still do. Just some small corrections regarding the photos;

- the first one is a Tiger II given to Sweden from France, which arrived in November 1947. Photo is not outside Henschel factory but Karlsborg, Sweden. If you look closely you´ll see "S2" written in chalk on the hull side armour, just in front of the first cleaning rod bracket. The tank was later used as a hard target (gearbox, Maybach engine and turret escape hatch remaines to this day).

- the second is from Haustenbeck, Germany (not Bovington) and Bovington´s Tiger II is the one behind the Jagdtiger, not the the first one with blown barrel.

Looking forward to see what you arrive at regarding the German colours.

Per

[Stephen White]

Per, I stand corrected, thanks.

The photos were intended to show the Bovington Pre-Production King Tiger V2 in its original colour to make that point that it was probably Dunkelgelb and that was unlikely to have been a cream hue. This is another contemporary photo of V2 (from the Tank Museum website):

The Tank Museum repainted V2 for the Tiger Collection exhibition in what purports to be the correct variant of Dunkelgelb:

The colour is closest to Dunkelgelb nach Muster (bottom left below), a colour which was only approved for use between Feb - Apr 1943, which is well before V2 was built. DnM can't be ruled out, as Henschel may have had stocks to exhaust but this seems unlikely. The AK book does offer one other variant which is close (bottom right below) which has no RAL reference card or chip and is simply described as a variant seen on a surviving bit of kit. I'd be interested to talk to David Willey, the Curator, about the provenance of that colour. Does it suggest the need to get something on quickly to meet an exhibition opening date or does it reflect substantive research?

Which all goes to support what Per implied, that colour is a notoriously tricky and subjective subject for modellers.

Mark, my Cent paint was matched from an original chip by a high-end car restorer in Surrey:

http://www.355international.com/

and was mixed by Metalflake:

http://www.metalflake.co.uk/

I might suggest you choose one of the four mixes I came up with then call Metalflake and ask them what data format they would need to reproduce the colour. My colour app can supply a number of different colour notation standards and I might well be able to find one they can handle. Metalflake are specialists but I'm sure a DIY store could probably get close, although they might only work from chips. I'll send you the four mixes by email.

Stephen

[Jeff Hyder]

Hi, Just like to say these are my observations regarding paint colours used on German vehicles. Back in the late 60s and early 70s when German tank kits came available research on various base colours was in its infancy, which is probably why the guy wrote the letter in the first place trying to find out what colour German tanks were. Through the 70s ,in Magazines, the general thought was that they were painted a Yellow Ochre or Yellow olive colour. I used Humbrols Deck Bleach Teak which is not a bus ride away from Dunkelgelb. Humbrol brought out a German Ochre colour I think in the 80s but it was gloss (No83). I think this was later changed to matt. I painted my Armortek Tiger XF60 with green and brown camouflage. Again as aside check out YouTube Tank recovery and see Stug111 pulled from a bog (its fitted with track extensions) Colour?

[Stephen White]

Jeff

Is this the one?



Stug III with Ostketten. Colour scheme is standard mid war tri-colour scheme of RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb basecoat with RAL 6003 Olivgruen and RAL 8017 Rotbraun. The film resolution is pretty low, which makes it hard to see much but the shots of the side elevation show the red and green camouflage patches clearly. I’d hesitate to say which variant of Dunkelgelb we’re seeing. You would need to find a patch of colour which has not been affected by weathering, winter camouflage, submersion in water etc. you could probably have a good guess if you know from the Fahrgestellnummer when it was produced and when it was lost.

If your point is that the colour looks like cream, I’d agree. On the film it does. The presence of Ostketten suggests this AFV was lost in winter. It’s therefore probable that it had a coat of temporary winter camouflage of white. Then you’ve got the effects of seventy odd years underwater and the poor film quality. Finally, you’ve got the natural ageing of the paint. Look at this jerrycan:

Looks cream but was certainly painted in RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb.

The only true colour sources are original colour chips which have been in a protected environment and seen in controlled light conditions by the naked eye. Everything else is colour interpreted through environment and history. Which is great for modellers, because there is scope for licence.

Stephen

[Christian Steinhauer]

Here in a little better quality

[Marco Peter]

Just to add some more user experience to this subject:

previous project was a zimmeritted Panther G in 1:16 scale, and since I love Dunkelgelb and recently got AK Interactive's new set of 'Real Colors' I tried it on my tank right away!


Well to me it was way too light! And since I care more about if I like it then historical accuracy, I tried the other three as well to see what I liked most:


Hmmm not much different in the first two, although they are WAY more yellowish then the first color I tried, which is on the right. The third color is kinda in between but more like the last one.


Here you can see more difference between number one and number two.

All didn't feel right since I also purchased their 'Real Colors' book, color-checked and all, those colors should be very precise...


These are my samples compared to the color sheet they supplied:



Historical RAL References


But how do my own samples of the paint I sprayed compare to these? Well, actually pretty well:









Those look pretty accurate...

But, are my samples the same as on the tank? Should be, since they are the exact same paint! And yes:


So... What is my 'problem'? Well, it seems a color that is correct in a small square appears much different on a whole tank!
The color I used the first time was extremely light but in the book is almost green/blue/grayish, and still the colors are the exact same!

[Marco Peter]

Yeah MORE than enough options available haha!



Tamiya XF-60 still a favourite:

[Maarten Schutjes]

Trying to match old matte Ral colors based on pictures from an cmyk printed book with satin paper, with inkt saturation based on profiles like euroscale coated v2 leaves a lot room for conversion errors. And are the images used in the book color corrected? Likewise with rgb samples from screens. That is why RAL and Pantone color fans and printed cmyk color books are still in use. The perceived brightness value of the models is most of the time imprecise when used for conversion. Not all pigments can be translated to cmyk.

The best thing would be to scan an original sample or to have an original, well preserved Ral color fan of the period.
Perhaps paint from outfits like http://www.repuestossam.com/en/kubelwagen/paints.html or https://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkun ... /index.php or others can help you with your research. They sell RAL paints (for military vehicles) that match/come very close to the originals.

Hope this helps

[Stephen White]

Marco, interesting experiment but it's difficult to assess via a computer screen and the appearance on a 1/16th model will be different from 1/6th. It looks as though the AK hues are roughly right but the saturation and shade don't look right, the colours seem too bright and too light. Martin, I had a look at both your references. The first one looks to have captured the two variants of Dunkelgelb very well, both the 1943-44 variant and the Ausgabe 44 one. The latter is a much darker, browner colour as it should be. The second reference is way out, compared with the colour chips in Chory and the reproduced original RAL cards in Real Colours. They've got the 1943-44 version roughly right but the Ausgabe 44 paint is pure fiction.

This is a subject full of debate and controversy, which is why I posted in the first place. I've come to the conclusion that you can summarise Dunkelgelb in two very simple statements:

- There were variants of Dunkelgelb, becoming darker in shade as the war progressed.

- Dunkelgelb was closer to khaki than to any form of cream or yellow in hue, despite it's German name.

Stephen

[Maarten Schutjes]

Why the changes? Various sources give various reasons:
For instance dunkelgelb was already in use even before it became a Ral color..

From http://kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_engl ... _-_45.html

...Dunkelgelb nach Muster got the new designation Dunkelgelb – dark yellow – RAL 7028.
Most probably, the first dark-yellow shade was developed in the 1930s as Einheitsfarbton – standard colouring. But this was a civilian development. This shade did not enter production at that time. The shade Dunkelgelb nach Muster was developed by the army ordnance office presumably beginning in 1941. Most probably, it went into field trials on the southern sector of the eastern front and in North Africa in 1942. This is proven by exhibits of this time period. The base colour shade Dunkelgelb nach Muster was replaced by the shade Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 only a few weeks after its official introduction. The new shade was admitted to the RAL-Farbtonregister 840 R in March 1943....//...It could be proven by original colour charts that Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 and Dunkelgelb nach Muster were two totally different colour shades. The shade Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 was less yellow than Dunkelgelb nach Muster. It tended more towards grey-brown. This occurrence was not recorded in any official document!
Due to production delays of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Dunkelgelb nach Muster was most probably used until autumn 1943 – partly in a brightened variant. The shade Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 was the base colour of the camouflage system to at least autumn 1944.

First in October 1944, a new colour chart with the shade Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Ausgabe 1944 – dark-yellow RAL 7028, version 1944 – was made. Interestingly, this shade corresponds to the Einheitsfarbton of the 1930s to100%. Apparently, the shade Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 could not be produced in sufficient quantities any more due to the tensed raw material situation. In this context it must be considered that many deposits of ochre were located in France and Italy and were lost at that time due to the situation of war. For this reason, the shade Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Ausgabe 1944 – which was easier to produce – was introduced. But the exact time could not be identified till now. The actions to save dark-yellow paint could be related to the change of the dark-yellow shades, too. Anyhow, the introduction of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Ausgabe 1944 could be proven on exhibits of this time period.

Exceprt from a note from Jerry Crandall about luftwaffe paints
http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1196071471

....The actual paint formula was not supplied to the approximately ten paint companies that produced quantities of paint for the Luftwaffe, so there is some variation in these mixes. Comparing a chart for instance, from Muster Schmidt with another prominent manufacturer, there are some variations....

Bruce culver mentioned in a post
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... it+evolve-

...also sent out a letter to the paint industry thanking them fore their effoerts in the face of shortages, and simply asked them to do the best that they could in producing paint to the standards...//..It appears that in practice, RAL 7028 was the equivalent of US Olive Drab, with many related but different shades of color covered in the official specification. Embrace that freedom...


So.. enjoy

ps color samples of pigment paint are best not to be judged from samples created in rgb on websites, but from the paint out of the paint can... as i as thought by my teacher in color studies in class. Or with specialized scanning equipment in an controled (calibrated) ebvironment.

This has been a great thread Stephen. thank you for posting

[Brian Ostlind]

Neat stuff!

Here is my Jerry can. It is stamped 1943.

[Stephen White]

At the risk of flogging the proverbial horse....

Brian, always good to see an artefact in its original colour. Note some jerrycans have survived in RAL 8020 Braun, which was one of the lighter Tropen colours. As it appears in your photos, the colour is consistent with others which are in RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb and which look a very light shade. Age and lighting of the photo have to be taken into account, as ever.

Picking up comments on the Armortek thread, it's clear Dunkelgelb was not and is not a single colour. As it was largely applied in manufacture, the colour was probably more consistent than field applications of the other camouflage colours based on thinned pastes but nevertheless, variations are seen.

For our purposes, it's more important to recognise that the colour went through at least three recorded changes and there was probably a fourth formal colour.There are definitive colour cards for these colours so if you can gain access to these, it would be possible to match the original colours exactly. Unfortunately, none of the surviving RAL colour cards are accessible and those who have them jealously guard them for commercial reasons. The best we can do is to measure and match photos of the cards. That introduces error.

The chips in the Tomaz Chory book purport to be the most accurate and they do match up to the RAL cards as they appear in the Real Colours book by AK.

So what? What colour is Dunkelgelb and how do we interpret it for Armortek models? (You could also ask who gives a .......?)

- Dunkelgelb went through at least three variations between 1942 and 1945. Dunkelgelb became progressively darker in shade.

- Dunkelgelb is a khaki colour not a light sand and it is certainly not as the name suggests a dark yellow.

- Surviving pieces of equipment show many more variations due to ageing and other factors. Photos of surviving equipment are an unreliable guilde.

My personal bottom line? Dunkelgelb was introduced for Europe not North Africa, so it's generally darker than we generally perceive. You can't go wrong with a darker shade, whereas the lighter examples of modelling paints don't look as accurate or realistic and are intended for small scale models to accommodate the scale effect. It's really a question of what looks right and that's a personal choice.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. It's a debate that will go on.

Now, who was asking about 4BO for the T-34, SCC 15 for the Comet and Olive Drab for the Sherman.....

S

[simon_manning]

i love these topics, i learn new things on every post, just to say i have never used any of these colors on my builds, Subaru beige car paint was the nearest i ever came, regards simon.

[Brian Ostlind]

Guys, I am no expert on paint so I had my local automotive shop try to match this pair of binoculars. They came back with a 1968 Volkswagen color. It looks nice from what I see off the bat.