To rust in piece?

[Fabrice Le Roux]

Hi David,

FWIW the official WWII line on steel winch and tow cables was that rust was unacceptable as it weakens the cable.

Evidence: A) War Office Dec 1944, Manual of Recovery, Part II, Ropes- Hemp and Steel Wire p31 para (d): "The fibre core of a steel rope is impregnated with lubricant and during manufacture the individual strands and the completed rope are also well lubricated. This, however, is insufficient to outlast the useful life of the rope and additional lubricant must be applied at regular intervals in order to keep it pliable and free from rust... When special lubricant is not available, engine oil may be applied with a stiff brush or alternatively by wiping over the rope with saturated waste. The rope must always be cleaned as thoroughly as possible before the application, in order to remove foreign matter and old lubricant from the grooves between the strands and spaces between the outer wires."

Evidence: B) US War Dept Dec 1943, TM9-738 Tank Recovery Vehicle M32, p72, Second Echelon Preventive Maintenance, Winch Cable and Drum: "..If cable is dirty, dry, or rusted, clean thoroughly with wire brush, and saturate with engine oil."

So a well-maintained operational vehicle would have oily steel tow cables. A burnt out hulk would have charred, rusted, cables. A badly maintained vehicle could very well have matching tow ropes. As I said in my original post, weathering is part of the model's narrative. But I agree less is more!

Cheers, Fabrice

[Dave Boller]

I think you have to temper what everyone here is saying by the fact that there's a difference between a peace-time military situation and a war-time one. Being a vet myself, yes, everything is maticulously cleaned "nine ways to Sunday", by "the book", and all the time. But, that's usually the game in a peace-time setting, done not just to keep equipment in top order, but also to keep the men from being too idle. In a war-time setting, however, a lot of this seemly frivolous procedural stuff, tends to fall by the way-side. The Manual has a tendency to go out the window on many different levels, for many different reasons. You can actually see it in the war-time photos of the day. The unshaven faces, the uniforms that are anything but uniform, the damaged equipment unrepaired and for quite some time, and so on it goes. You don't see this in peace-time. It's not all from a lack of supply either, you see it in both sides during the War. I think it's done intentionally by those in charge to keep morale up, in an otherwise horrendous war-time circumstance. An officer breaking some GI.'s horns over the lack of a spit-shine on his boots, when his buddy's head just got blown off, probably doesn't do wonders for the entire unit's morale. So, in that context, I don't image too many tow cables got greased, during let's say, "The Bulge", rust not withstanding.

[Fabrice Le Roux]

Hi Dave,

Fair comment. I totally agree with your description of weathering reflecting the narrative of the vehicle, and clearly there is a difference between peacetime parade ground "bulling up" and in theatre appearance. The quotes were not from pre-war manuals but from 1943 and 1944 editions, and the operational realities were reflected in the M32 TM making cable cleaning a second echelon task, not a frontline, first echelon one.

My point was, that at the start of the weathering process, the cables would have been greased up, rather than left as untreated rusting metal, and while the lubricant would initially inhibit rust, it would also rapidly attract dust and dirt. So a dusty, newish vehicle is unlikely to have rusted cables, just dirty ones, while a battered warhorse, in need of a refit, might.

Care of recovery cables is not quite as "frivolous" as polishing boots. A damaged, kinked, or weakened steel cable can fail *without* warning, and with lethal consequences. So the ARV crews probably took better care of their cables, and would avoid using a suspect one from a casualty vehicle.

As far as the weathering fx go, we both agree that it should not be overdone.
Cheers, Fabrice

[Russ Clark]

HELLO
COULD SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT THE 3 BOSSES ON TOP OF THE TURRET {TIGER 1} WERE USED FOR?
THANKS

[Dave Boller]

Not sure which bosses you're referring to. There were 3 steel, side-mounted,cable pegs for lifting the turret off the body by crane. The 2 front ones also served as pivots for the main gun. Now, some vehicles had "field-modified" piltzes (usually 3 of them), welded to the turret roof to serve as post-supports for a 3-legged jib. Many different tanks had them. This was usually used in lifting the engine or transmission out of the body for repair in the field. Hope this helps.

[Adrian Harris]

They're for the Behelfskran, a form of jib crane.

Here's one Paul Morris made back in 2007:



Adrian.

[Dave Boller]

Hi Fabrice, Sorry I didn't get back to you right away,but what I want to say here is very complex and lengthy for this page. I want to be concise about it. First off, please don't take this personally. My goal is to criticize the message, not the messenger, in an attempt to get to the most reasonable answer to a question you simply can't find in the history books. The tiny, mundane details, such as tow rope rust, seldom are. We all want our builds to be as realistic as possible. That goal we all share here. But in the absence of actual facts, we have to be able to debate and come up with a conclusion based on the most realistic, best possible answer given all the known, historic circumstances. That said, some things on a war-time AFV, are going to be highly prone to rust, and some things not, even given the vehicle's short life span. Exhaust system componenants for example, will rust very quickly, as opposed to say fenders. Tow ropes, I feel, are a high prone item. Why? Because it's stored outside the vehicles, where continually exposed to the elements. It takes a lot of physical abuse. It doesn't retain it's protective coating(oil/paint)very well or for very long. In terms of maintenance, it's a low priority item(think of ALL the work needed on a tank by it's crew),with a high amount of care needed to keep the cables rust-free, and within a war-time context(so it will fall by the wayside in spite of what a manual dictates). Now, the dangers of a snapping cable when in use, always are present, even in pristine new ones. Anyone in a position to use them(tankers, maintenance, engineers, etc.), know this and take reasonable precautions thus. And if it does snap, as long as no one's hurt, oh well, get another cable from wherever. Yes, even a rusty one. Which really, it's tensil-strength, is not likely to be too affected by any superficial, surface rust(years worth of rust, maybe). The priority and focus in war, is to get the stuck vehicle up and running as fast as possible. The cables be darned. Also, I don't think it would be too unlikely to see a fairly new vehicle, sporting old cables that they may have picked up at a depot or elsewhere, with the loss of their original ones. However that loss might occur. Cable use, and consquently their loss, was quite common on the battlefield, especially in bad weather(Image how many cables a stuck Jadgtiger might go through?). Notice from old photos how they're often attached, "at-the-ready", to the vehicle's "U"-hooks. Again, in peace-time, it's a totally different story.

[Stephen White]

To continue the discussion here:

http://www.armortek.co.uk/Forum3b/viewt ... 595#p60595

This is a picture posted today of a Chieftain being rescued after several years lying derelict in a field. There is no visible rust on the links themselves. The track pins and circlips are rusty where they’re exposed but they’re both steel. Painting “rust”on model tracks is like putting a beard on the Mona Lisa, amusing but utterly inappropriate. If I was on Facebook, I’d add “just sayin” but I’m not.

Stephen

I'm afraid I have to disagree and say that those links look rusted and pitted to me...

I'm surprised at the amount of overspray on the tyres and return rollers, but not on the tracks, so it looks as though it was painted with the tracks off.

Adrian.

Adrian

Here's another pic from the same vehicle:

- From the 1920s onward, most tank track links were made of steel alloys, including manganese and/or zinc. In addition to their mechanical properties, these alloys are also intended to protect the links from the formation of iron oxides (="red rust"). Corrosion may occur if left exposed to the elements for long periods. The corrosion is likely to take the form of ferrous hydroxide (alias "green rust"). Ferrous oxide may appear as a dark green or grey coating. I used the term "rust" to mean the former, since most people associate "rust" with red or orange.

- On the photo above, there is some corrosion but I don't see the characteristic red/orange of ferrous oxide on the links. There is a strong colour contrast between the grey/green of the links and the red of the track pins and circlips. This reflects corrosion affecting two different metals.
A summary might be: if left immobile for long periods, tank tracks might corrode, with a dark green/grey coating, with some pitting. Components such as track pins and circlips might exhibit red/orange ferrous oxide rust under such conditions. But here's the punchline:

Tracks in regular, operational use are unlikely to show any evidence of corrosion and certainly not heavy concentrations of "red rust".

It's a personal choice. To quote one famous contributor to this Forum "It's all in the details".

Stephen

[Simon Peck]

Hi Stephen,

Why does the knowledge base say: “German tracks benefit from a coat of red primer”, whereas allied tracks don’t, what’s the reasoning there?

Cheers,

Simon

[Robert Reid]

In the old car world... we've gone through (are going through?) this same conundrum with the Preservation Class and the "Rat Rod" phenomena...

The preservation class is actually a good theory. Cars are only 'original' once. And trying to preserve good examples that give educational and research opportunities on everything from original materials and finishes to small details like coachstriping... are good things. The challenge comes when the whole concept is taken a bridge too far... to start driving rolling wrecks that are little more than rust and termites holding hands... with engines that sort of barely wheeze along. Preservation means saving original finishes and craftsmanship... not old rust.

The other side of this is the whole 'Rat Rod' thing that is now, mercifully, fading out. One of my dearest friends, who was a car guy and hotrodder in the '50s and '60's described the Rat Rod black primer thing as a bunch of bovine scatology. Saying that "Yes, there were pictures of cars taken in primer coat back then. But if you showed up with a car 'in primer' anywhere back in the day... your friends would all laugh at you for not being able to afford paint." In short, noone would run around in a primered hot rod for longer than it took to save up for a gallon of paint. Which was usually about 2 weeks!

So for the rusted tracks and rusted tanks... I think you guys have done a great job covering the realities of how military equipment was treated when it was in active use. And, for sure, when not actively used... rust set in. But to portray in-service vehicles as covered in rust... on tracks or otherwise... is more or less an invitation for a complete dressing down by a sergeant.

"Is that rust on your Bayonet, Leibgott? Pass revoked!"

Great thread and, I think, very historically relevant when it comes to weathering and detailing armor of all kinds. Er... sorry. Armour.

Cheers,

RPR

[Stephen White]

Nice one Robert. Thanks.

Simon, according to Jentz and Doyle, German WW2 tracks were forged in a steel with a high manganese content which gave them a yellow/brown hue. After etch priming, a thin coat of red primer helps achieve the right base colour. That’s all. It wasn’t to suggest that German factories applied red oxide to their track links, although I have seen claims that there is evidence of it on surviving links. Perhaps one of those on this Forum who have original links might comment? The high manganese alloys are close to stainless steel, so I can’t see why with wartime shortages, the Germans would waste primer on something subjected to such aggressive wear.

Stephen

[Simon Peck]

Thanks Stephen,

I wasn’t sure if you were suggesting German WWII links were painted at the factory, which would have been a revelation for me.
A thought regarding evidence of paint on surviving links: perhaps the links in question were ‘spares’ hung on the outside of the vehicles when the crews camouflaged their tanks? Of course we are unlikely to ever know for sure.

Thanks again,

Simon

[simon_manning]

i like rust, regards simon.

[Brian Ostlind]

Tiger tracks no sign of rust.

[Marco Peter]

Congrats to whoever owns that track! Jealous! Haha!