Gun Barrel Recoil

Phil Woollard · Post by **Phil Woollard** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:36 pm

Just making a point dude, I love that film of the Tiger1's firing, the Tiger1 is still my favorite afv. When I was a kid my farther was stationed at the tank museum and I would climb all over the vehicles I loved to hear about the history behind that now infamous tank.
I am currently working on a recoil system which uses stored smoke and bellows, so when the servo pulls the barrel back the bellows push the smoke out the barrel this along with the benedini cannon sound and a bit of track movement might do the trick (patents pending)
Allen have you got any film of your system in action I would very much like to see it cheers Phil

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:42 pm

I must apologize Phil, its just gets frustratuing as this is truely apples and ornages that always seem to get simply "lopped" together everytime.....

Animated recoil is feature I, and I think others, would like to see....and it has nothing to do with others wanting to use blank firing systems

Phil Woollard · Post by **Phil Woollard** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:02 pm

I'm cool with that Jim, we are all entitled to our opinions

Christoffer Ahlfors · Post by **Christoffer Ahlfors** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:40 pm

Same idea:

I encourage you to read the entire story (plywood Cromwell). Although metal tanks are cooler

, ingenuity sure has a great value to anyone technically interested.

Cheers,
/Chris

Allan Richards · Post by **Allan Richards** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:03 pm

The cam idea is certainly a good idea to get the different speeds for recoil and recuperation but there are two problems to overcome with the larger and heavier metal barrels, one is that a strong spring will be needed to move the barrel quickly and also the motor must be strong enough to wind the cam back against the force of the strong spring. Also in this mechanism the cam must always run in the same direction. The sail winch servo I used turns one way and then reverses, so it cannot be used in this application. It is also necessary to have a good linear bearing for the barrel to run in.

simon_manning · Post by **simon_manning** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:28 pm

thats an ingenius recoil system in your tiger alan, i never noticed it before, the aerosol was a clever idea too, interesting, regards simon manning.

Martin Cohen · Post by **Martin Cohen** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:28 am

I would like to see my Tiger's Armortek gun firing system with its smoke and flash, supplemented with synchronized 88 sound effects, and of course with barrel recoil. Any one or two without the other still leaves me thinking I'm looking at a toy. Sorry, but none of the videos mentioned in this thread made me want to run out and add them to my Tiger, but their developers may be on some right track (so to speak) and I am happy to encourage them to keep at it.

I have the Armortek system in my Tiger, though I've never fired it; I love technology, but am too lazy to clean up after it. But just looking at that hardware: the space it takes up in the turret and its mass, leaves me thinking a comprehensive solution will not be simple yet worthwhile.

Not just to stir the pot, but in a perfect world any engineering work with the firing system should be a cooperative effort working with or solely by Armortek. In time I bet paper or no paper, someone will come up with it on their own if Armortek does not - those in the UK may recall how rebellious some colonials can be after all

I'd be willing to pay well for that system - even if I never fire it too.

Martin

Roland Wallick · Post by **Roland Wallick** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:30 pm

Darryl Vernon wrote:This is the reason that I didn't order the blank firer.
IMHO, an operating gun, must recoil so as to be totally realistic. So after my Panther is built, it will have no firing gun, until I can sort out, find or build, a recoil unit.
I'd personally, rather have a recoil on the gun, and a recorded sound effect of the actual firing.

I agree absolutley here. What fun is a gun if it resembles a smoking baseball bat ? Recoil is what makes the tank look real !!

Roland Wallick · Post by **Roland Wallick** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Jim Fowler wrote:
Darryl Vernon wrote: The only aspect of blanks that I do like is the "whisp" of smoke -

What fails to be seen or considered is that some of us are asking for an animated recoil, NOT having anything to do with BLANKS.

I find that whisp rather disappointing since tanks put out rather large flashes and loads of smoke.

Roland Wallick · Post by **Roland Wallick** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:57 pm

Antony Rowley wrote:
Phil Woollard wrote: some crap
Phil,

Not crap at all I really love the smoke coming out of the barrel etc but see below as it would have been even more enhanced by recoil but then you'd loose the smoke Ah decisions

Thanks Antony

Sounds like a pop gun, not arty, thats artillery to you guys on the other side of the water.
Yes Im critical, I have artillery in my blood.

Antony Rowley · Post by **Antony Rowley** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:04 pm

Roland Wallick wrote:
Sounds like a pop gun, not arty, thats artillery to you guys on the other side of the water.
Yes Im critical, I have artillery in my blood.

Roland, that's the limitation of most normal video cameras, I can assure you the bang on most of these video's is alot louder in the flesh

Granted you're not going to get as a big a bang as 1:1 but these are 1:6

Thanks Antony

Martin Cohen · Post by **Martin Cohen** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:25 am

As far as smoke, the Armortek Firing Unit (AFU) seems to be the best - in the films and photos I've seen it puts out so much more volume with more realistic force than any alternatives. My sense is that when the AFU goes off, anyone but an expert might be so impressed/stunned by the sound volume and smoke that they'd be inclined to not notice the recoil is not there. For the rest of us however, that's what is missing - a fast recoil and slower return.

The sound frequencies produced by a 1:6 scale gun 'bang' can never really be close to the 'boom' that I imagine an 88 would issue. That's why I think that supplementing the AFU with sound effects could help. I envision synchronizing the sound track to the firing of the AFU gun; maybe playing back a recording of a real 88-ish gun for example, but one that is edited/filtered to only playback those frequencies not already provided by the Gun Firing Unit. In this way the speaker(s) and Amp of the audio system can focus their full attention on reproducing those lower frequencies for example. The system might even have a separate amp and speaker set optimized solely for use with the Firing Unit.

Though I pity any fool who thinks I may be onto something!

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:46 am

A couple of observations. I'd best describe the sound of a tank gun as a sharp crack which is generated by the high pressure shock wave passing. If you're close enough to the firing vehicle, you can also hear the propellant charge going off inside the turret but that's much more muted. For anyone in UK, the Royal Armoured Corps Gunnery School at Lulworth has a public viewing place so it's easy to witness tank firing at first hand.

The other consequence of firing is platform rock. The whole chassis rocks backward on it's suspension, particularly in the higher calibres. I've no idea how you would simulate that.

Regards

Stephen

Phil Woollard · Post by **Phil Woollard** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:31 am

This is as close to the hv boom of the real 88mm that we can get so turn up your volume! the first shot in the film is a standard charge ( which seems a bit tame ) the second shot of the distant Tiger2 has a 3x theatrical load that is also pushing lead to increase the pressure, it's about proofing house pressure so it's on the limit for that barrel.

Phil Woollard · Post by **Phil Woollard** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:45 am

Hi Stephen I agree the platform rock is also very important, the Tiger2 hybrid that we have nearly completed has the mk1 esc's which have the pulse to the track motors on firing the main gun I will post the video as soon as possible after filming so that we can compare the effect.
I thought that they had stopped the puplic from viewing the firing at Lulworth, if it's on again it's one of those things you have just got to experience before you die, if the Challenger on the apron has a red flag flying on the turret then she's going to let rip (green flag means there's nothing in the tube and awaiting range clear) the sudden noise is incredible and will make you jump out of your skin, when you are in the tank it's just a bump.See if you can see the recoil?I think the night time firing is cool to, sorry about the language but that's life in the service's cheers Phil