The Panzer III in Sicily

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:21 am

Guys,

I would like to ask for some help. Initially, I was focusing my P3 build toward making an Ausf J, in or about Tunisia. But, I am now considering changing my focus to an Ausf L or M in Sicily - Herman Goring Division. I am thinking it would play better with my 21st C Stuart - its a M5A1.

I can put the P3 there; what I can't seem to do is determine the color scheme - I am assuming the standard later 43 Yellow. But, I can't really find any thing I feel really confirms it - like a PIC. What I have found is that the HG seemed to always done thing "a bit" different. Seems they were given some "license" in a lot of things. That sort of struck my interest. But, it also seems to be frustrating too - when you can't resolve something to your comfort level....

Another tid-bit on the web would suggest some of the tanks delivered for the effort were rerouted from stock being sent to Russia and may have sported some side armor (??think it might be a stretch??)

If any of you have something - please any feedback welcome. I'm sort of at a cross-roads and would very much like others input to help me figure out what I want to do.

Antony Rowley · Post by **Antony Rowley** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:24 am

Hi Jim,

This might be a good place to start in buying this book:

http://www.ipmsusa2.org/reviews2/mil-ve ... hg-div.htm

I'll keep on looking to see what I can find.

Thanks Antony

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:47 pm

Thanks Anthony,

I have just picked up this book yesterday, its a good historical source and has plenty of PICs of other tanks (GREAT for a STUG!). The middle does have a PIII illustration plate as well (tank in plain yellow). But, that's it on the PIII for the book really. Its a start thought - thanks for tipping me off to it.

Antony Rowley · Post by **Antony Rowley** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:08 pm

Hi Jim,

Your welcome. I have been trawling the net but haven't found anymore photo's of a HG Panzer III. I've also had a look on You Tube, there are a few grainy pics of Panzer III's atributed to HG but to be honest they could be any division. I'll keep on looking as I'm really interested in the Panzer III's anyway.

Thanks Antony

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:27 pm

Jim

You might try looking at the plastic modelling community. I'm sure I've seen a diorama of an Ausf M from HG in Sicily in a Spanish publication or website. Sorry not to be more specific but next week I'll be able to get access to some sources.

Regards

Stephen

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:06 pm

Athony and Sthephen,

Thanks for keeping a look out for me on this topic. I'm not sure about making an Ausf M yet. the company I was going to get to copy the hull sides seemed to really want to copy the entire kit.....I sort of bowed out on that for obvious reasons. I will either have to filling the side hatch areas or find another to cut them - sort of at a stand still at the moment. Or, I could just go with the Ausf L??? I am sure that strategy would be as good...I just wanted to make something a bit different as there will probably be a lot of Ausf Ls.

On another aspect, I was looking at the turret stowage bin - getting a measurement for Steve, as I am ordering a bin lid from him. But, as I look more and more at the bin....I'm wondering what can be done with the bin to make it look more real? I have some issues with the shape, but that is really not my focus though. The stowage bin on the model is this large cast hunk of aluminum.....on the real tank, its sheet metal. The real one can and did get dinged, beatup and even a bullit hole or two - not sure I know how to make that hunk look like the real thing?

I know its only on my mind because I was looking at it for the lid, but if and when anyone starts looking into that or has some techniques or ideas on it - please share them.

Graham Ord · Post by **Graham Ord** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:40 pm

Hi Jim
Heres how I made mine for the P4
http://www.armortek.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:13 pm

Thanks Graham!

I am sort of wondering what it would be like to make one out of sheet brass - soldered togehter..... That way I could really "ding" it up a bit...

Derek Attree · Post by **Derek Attree** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:07 pm

Hi Jim
I have made small infill bits to fill the escape hatch holes.
As the were not on the Stug either.I made mine from 5 mm alloy
cut slightly smaller than the hatches and I have just bolted those in place.
with a couple of small flat plates drilled and tapped from the inside of the hull. Any gaps filled with car body filler (P38) in the uk. Sand smooth and paint. No need to make new sides and if you want to change it later just
unscrew and bash out the bits. and fit the hatches again...Simple.
The M exhaust looks cool as well

Derek

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:33 am

Jim

Finally tracked down the reference. If you can get hold of a copy of a model magazine called Xtreme Modelling, published in Spain I believe, Edition 30 has an article and a very good set of pictures of a model of an Ausf M from Herman Goering Div in Sicily.

The magazine has a web site at www.xtrememodelling.com and you could probably also get a copy from: www.motorbooks.co.uk.

Hope this is of help.

Regards.

Stephen

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:56 pm

THANKS Stephen! I will start now.

Thus far I have:

Hermann GÃ¶ring - From Regiment to Fallschirmpanzerkorps by Roger James Bender & George A. Petersen

Hermann GÃ¶ring - Panzer Division in Sicily by Jim Rae

But, as always, I am in the hunt for more references.

As I said before......they are addictive, can't just get one....

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:28 pm

Well, I have gotten about 6 books now on the HG Division and gotten confirmation that Panzer 3 Ausf J - N were present in Sicily - and Asuf L- N in Italy. I can even put examples of Ausf M and Ausf N sporting schurzen in them as well.

So, I was all set to build an ausf M....

Then I happen to flip through a book entitled "Panzers of Kasserine" b y Claude Gillono - Fatory books. In the books illustrations it shows Ausf J chassis with L42 and L60 guns - OK, that is expected. But, it also shows Ausf J chassis sporting a 7.5cm L24 gun....thats a combo I never seen before! And, of course there is no such tank in the photos of the book - nor in any other I have to the best of my review of them.

So now I want to ask all of you... Do any of you have a picture, or know of a picture of a Panzer III with side doors, sporting a 7.5cm L/24 main gun?

OK, some might wonder why ask, why care? Well, this would mean I might possibly be able to make/render my Panzer III with the ability to use all three barrel types. Currently, my fire/recoil system utilizes the kit's L/60 - I made it screw on. I like the idea of multiple barrels.....and multiple tank versions. I know Dave at Armorpax is working on a L/24 kit, so if this is historically possible (the Panzer III described above), then....one tank and 3 barrels is plausible - I would just have to switch back to the Tunisia/North Afrika time frame.....

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:21 pm

Jim

Page 3-3-73 of Panzer Tracts No 3-3.

Jentz and Doyle give a good account of the origin of the Ausf N. The majority were build on Ausf L standard new build hulls and the simple hull sides without side hatches were only introduced late in the production run. So there certainly were Ausf N with side hatches although I've only been able to find photograhic confirmation in the photo above. Lots of the reference books show colour drawings of Ausf N with side hatches but I suspect that is just idleness in the artists using Ausf L basic drawings. Certainly some of the illustrations of Pz Abt 501 vehicles in Tunisia are drawn with side hatches alongside photos which show the same vehicle without them. I think you have to find a specific vehicle photo to be sure or just make a generic vehicle. Either would be correct.

Hope this helps.

Stephen

Stephen White · Post by **Stephen White** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:39 pm

Norway!

This is an Ausf N in the Troms Forsvarsmuseum which was recovered from Bardufoss airfield where it was one of three dug in as static bunkers. It would have belonged to Pz Abt 211.

Regards

Stephen

Jim Fowler · Post by **Jim Fowler** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:33 pm

Thanks Stephen!

This is an awesome photo!

The Panzer III in Sicily

The Panzer III in Sicily

BIN

Panzer III in Sicily

Have you ever seen this Tank.....